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About 5 am, I toddled downstairs for coffee and always the optimist, turned on NPR for "good" news.  First off the bat, a NPR pundit interviews Jim Webb.  Finally, a strong spokesperson. Transcript not up - but here's my transcript.  Anyone who listened care to chime in.

First question: What IS the Democratic plan for the War?  That is what you ran on.  Now that your party is in office, IS there a plan out there?  

ZZZIINNG goes my morning brain. But wait.

Jim Webb:  I've heard this often from the media - we don't have a plan and I ran and won solely on the War. This is not true.  I ran on class issues and the war in this country between the wealthiest and our middle class. As to the war, let's emphasize the people who started this war have no plan. (interruption about the feckless planless Dems)

Webb:  Let me finish.  (well that woke me up) Yes, I was one of the first speaking against an invasion.  Then goes on to list his resume as to national defense.  (It's damn good.)  Discusses how's he's written extensively. Then discusses the war and diplomatic solutions and that we will leave.

Talks about how we're going back to the 1880s.  (the incredulous reporter with scorn in her voice:  the 1880s? (talk about elitism).

Webb:  Let me finish.  Yes -- and goes on to describe the similar wealth disparity and comparisons between now and the 1880s.  He's got the figures downpat.
(Talks over her again)  Yes, we will have a minimum wage increase when she tries to imply by her tone it's a tired old theme.  And he said it forcefully.

Reporter:  Well, we're out of time (and damn it he controlled the interview in her voice)

I swear she hung up on him and I barely heard his good bye thank you.

Then - the NEUTRAL panel.  Mara Liasson says firmly: well, he's signing on to the Baker plan.  (please Mara - make sure you give no credit or credence to the Democrats.  it would so disappoint me.)   Follows a dispirited discussion about the Dems and their narrow win (with the help of republicans)  oh yes, and Sen. elect Webb won because Allen misspoke.  

Note to NPR.  Get Sen. Obama on tomorrow - he'll go along with you.  I heard just before this segment he's been saying the Dems better prove themselves now.  

I didn't really follow the Virginia race and knew little about Sen. elect Webb but I am impressed - he's forceful; he's used to giving orders, not taking them from the media or anyone else and he's way smart.  Whoever recruited him -if this is any indication of his stewardship - THANK YOU.         UPDATE; I have a doctor's appointment so I'm gone now. some commentators disagreed with my take on the interview. I said "my transcript" and I knew you guys would listen and make up your own minds. I do not hate NPR as centerdem suggested. I'm disappointed in them - more like it. This interview with Webb energized me to find out more about the man. I am frankly tired of the way the media is now playing our win -- as though there aren't new guys in town - there are!

Originally posted to xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 03:56 AM PST.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Well, you're too kind (207+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Alumbrados, RobertInWisconsin, Ed in Montana, Marek, dwellscho, Sean Robertson, matt n nyc, bluecayuga, gogol, Hornito, Tulip, tikkun, TaraIst, abarefootboy, Pandora, Jake Nelson, surfbird007, Sprinkles, tomathawl, billlaurelMD, CaptUnderpants, rhubarb, LuLu, figdish, leftyboy666, DFWmom, dash888, ZAPatty, Carnacki, Matilda, zeroooo, Heart of the Rockies, concernedamerican, bronte17, KB, skrymir, JDRhoades, leveymg, dlcampbe, Cassandra77, susakinovember, MD patriot, metal prophet, poemless, CalNM, Xapulin, Glic, Stumptown Dave, mrblifil, taonow, JuliaAnn, ivote2004, Ignacio Magaloni, peraspera, bincbom, Miss Blue, sophiebrown, PeteZerria, Jesterfox, celticshel, Mauimom, cathy b, oldjohnbrown, obatanga night, BmoreMD, TXsharon, cosette, goobop, churchylafemme, Bulldawg, snakelass, The Angry Buddhist, Blackstar, Brian82, dcookie, One bite at a time, JohnGor0, YetiMonk, HK, bablhous, ChaosMouse, eve, greeseyparrot, nehark, vcmvo2, klw1963, Red State Misfit, historys mysteries, 3goldens, Owl of Minerva, William Domingo, MHB, jdbrooklyn, Elise, Five of Diamonds, docangel, revbludge, mjd in florida, Chinton, givemhellHarryR, Geronimo, Bill Section 147, frandor55, truong son traveler, stitchmd, kaye, 5oclockshadow, Richard Carlucci, teresab, boofdah, jfadden, Sharon in MD, concerned, EconAtheist, John DE, ladybug53, QuickSilver, babatunde, demmefatale, Yamara, shiobhan, neroden, sodalis, LithiumCola, chiefsjen, Doug Goodenough, AceDeuceLady, Topaz7, esquimaux, trashablanca, Do Tell, tarheelblue, Ceee, Gorette, Yellow Canary, rhetoricus, Naniboujou, Albatross, isis2, prodigal, merrinc, global citizen, Lashe, 4Freedom, imabluemerkin, mrcoder, BenFranklinGrl, NearlyNormal, kay dub, Potus2020, ER Doc, edgery, Andy30tx, 5x5, ilyana, Timothy J, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, BB10, numinus, means are the ends, RantNRaven, Georgia sailor, Lew2006, kurious, renogal, Autarkh, kidneystones, Hedwig, 73rd virgin, Pandoras Box, One Pissed Off Liberal, J Royce, KatHart, anotherdemocrat, dotsright, khereva, Cronesense, SomeStones, sistersilverwolf, Cat Whisperer, Loudoun County Dem, DeannaHawk, Cottagerose, Tailspinterry, fairleft, dotcommodity, DvCM, Mary Mike, profmom, flumptytail, mommyof3, jimbobb, txlosthorn, Strabo, Ken in Tex, beemerr, PaulGaskin, Got a Grip, Papa Ted, scardanelli, TexasTwister, SassyFrass, TomP, Empower Ink, nom de paix, RealisticDeminMD, Catch A Fire

    I agree that Webb gave a strong response, but I thought the interviewer was extremely rude and disrespectful.  What is the matter with these people??

  •  Obama is the ultimate Uncle Tom. (22+ / 7-)

    Shame on him.  Ford, although he lost and was more religious than my liking, at least stood up and spoke out.  Conyers, I bow before.   Obama is a milquetoast. If he or Hillary are the Party's nominee, I won't be involved in helping either of them take the Presidency.  If my choice is a Dem. controlled House and Senate and another dumb ass Republican President (grid lock) or Dem control with a K Street Dem President, I'll take gridlock.  It would be better for the Party and the country.  Hey Obama, don't quit your day job.  Better yet, lets get a real Democrat to take him on next time he runs.  Then watch his sissy little ass run left - until he get elected - then he'll go right again.  

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein

    by dkmich on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:00:59 AM PST

    •  Was Obama on NPR also? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Do Tell, khereva

      "In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

      by LithiumCola on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:04:06 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Uncle Tom? (81+ / 0-)

      In what sense are you using that expression?  Do you even know what it means?

      And, why would you feel the need to inject race into a purely political discussion in the first place?

      Are you aware that an Uncle Tom is a person who is said to betray black people on behalf of whites?  For example, a black man who runs for office as a Republican, even though the Republicans are actively engaged in efforts to suppress the black vote.  Such a person would be justifiably derided as an Uncle Tom.

      Please cite even one piece of evidence to support your contention that Barack Obama, who has argued passionately on the subject of equality and justice, is an Uncle Tom.

      •  yes. really aware (0+ / 0-)

        and not at all impressed with Obama.

        all of us are pupils in the eyes of God

        by SassyFrass on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:17:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I've been completely unimpressed with Obama, too. (5+ / 0-)

        I don't know enough about him to call him an Uncle Tom, but he certainly is willing to throw the Dems over in the name of accomodation.  We need more like Webb and Tester, NOT like Obama!

      •  Obama (12+ / 0-)

        Did way more for the African-Americans of Illinois than anyone on DailyKos has, that's for damn sure.  I fully expect that to continue now that he's part of a majority in the Senate.

        All this DailyKos ranting about Obama started because he's (HOLY FUCK!) religious.  Now it's gotten to the point where posters feel comfortable saying that means he's selling out black people.  Or...something?  

        Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

        by ChicagoDem on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:41:44 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Man, I hate these preachy types of comments... (6+ / 0-)

        Every damn thing doesn't have to be taken so literally. And this is quite condescending. These types of comments always are:

        Are you aware that an Uncle Tom is a person who is said to betray black people on behalf of whites?

        When I read dkmich's comment, my take was a double entendre: Are you aware that Obama is a person that is said to betray Democratic people on behalf of Republican bullies?

        You know, when I think about how the Democrats in Congress could have been as forceful as Jim Webb before we got mired in this "punditocracy" of lies, how they could have nipped all this bullshit in the bud if they hadn't been afraid, or on the take, or whatever it is that kept them from speaking out, my blood fucking just boils.

        Obama, did you get the memo? Rush says you can now stop carrying water for liars! Doesn't that feel just great?

        I'm with dkmich. If we run a little "sissy ass" in 2008, I'm voting for McCain...or whomever (R). Better to know what we're dealing with.

        Now flame away. I couldn't give a rat's ass. The damage done by not taking a stand is almost insurmountable. Damnit. Maybe this "little thin win" for the Democrats will embolden some of them to stand up for us.

        "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

        by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:50:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  not enough DEMS have balls (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nehark

          it concerns me that some dems will only grow a backbone after seeing what Webb and Tester have done.

          We want leaders that always have had a backbone, and that is something that has been rare in the Democratic party, exhibited by the greats like Representative John Conyers, and Cynthia McKinney, who was campaigned against by AIPAC.

          •  I agree 100%... (0+ / 0-)

            ...with everything.

            some dems will only grow a backbone after seeing what Webb and Tester have done

            I'll take it. Let the backbone growing begin! :-)

            "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

            by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:02:23 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  P.S. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hardleft

            I hope to see the day when Cynthia McKinney is vindicated. She was one of the few willing to speak out and she was sorely punished for it. The worst of it was from our side. It amazes me how we fall for their dirty tricks time after time after time.

            "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

            by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:08:15 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Words have meanings... (5+ / 0-)

          and the term "Uncle Tom" has some very, very strong connotations. When you disagree with someone you do not have to resort the the strongest, most inflamatory and offensive rhetoric possible in order to make your point. In fact, most arguments are best made in the absence of such rhetoric.

          •  You know, I agree with you, and... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rebop

            ...have addressed this side of it here and here.

            I consider the response a bit of an "overreaction" though as I think the commenter's intent was clear. I wonder if this particular term's connotations are stronger in some parts of the country than others. I mean, I'm just speculating here. I do agree with the point you're making. It's not wise to drag out the most offensive rhetoric you've got before the argument even begins. I just wonder if this was intentional. I really don't think it was. Again, I may be wrong.

            "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

            by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:26:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  May not have been intentional... (0+ / 0-)

              if not, hopefully the poster got either a history lesson or a lesson in rhetoric. But, yeah it's a strong word, and most African American males tend to have a visceral reaction to being called that.

              •  Thanks to your thoughtful post... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                rebop

                ...I've received both lessons.

                The problem for some of us I think is that we just don't think in terms of race. I never think about Obama being a black man. I mean it doesn't enter into my thought process. Perhaps this is how offensive rhetoric gets unintentionally used.

                (I do, however, often think of Obama as too conciliatory in the face of outright lunacy. OK. I think of him as weak and indecisive. I hope this election will let him know that the people have his back, and give him some courage.)

                "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

                by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:50:03 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks... (0+ / 0-)

                  I've spoken intemperately, or posted without thinking through all the implications of my words too...we all do it, it's a part of the medium to a certain extent. I agree to a degree with your observations about Obama, there is a fine line between being "thoughtful" and "indecisive," and Obama walks very close to that line. Which side you see him on is largely a matter of perspective. At this point I am inclined to cut him some slack and assume that he is a thoughtful man who likes to consider all sides before coming to a decision.

            •  "Uncle Tom" (0+ / 0-)

              I wonder if this particular term's connotations are stronger in some parts of the country than others.

              Yes, maybe in those areas of the country where there aren't many black people, or there are too many people who are ignorant of US cultural history.

              Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

              by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 10:47:30 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you for seeing a bigger picture. (0+ / 0-)

          I am always amazed at how "literal" some people are.  My reference to him being an Uncle Tom was along the lines of being an ass kisser or a self preservationist above all else. To block the "racial" tract, I included two other black politicians, one of whom I adore. Unfortunately, it didn't help put them on track to the larger connotation so I appreciate that you got it.  

          Obama was quite willing to come over here and attack this community because we disagreed with the party and voiced it.  Obama is a Jr. Senator with a big mouth and a big head.  Imagine the cheek, running for President after 2 years in office.  Last but not least, Lieberman is his hero and mentor.  If that doesn't say a mouth full about being an ass kisser and a self-preservationist, I don't know can.  

          "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein

          by dkmich on Sat Nov 11, 2006 at 04:28:11 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  "Uncle Tom" A Tad Strong (36+ / 0-)

      Actually a helluva lot more than a tad. Obama is a valued member of the cause and shouldn't be tarnished with such a label. I am concerned that at times his rhetoric might cross the line into the "concern troll" area. But I'm all for what he brings to the table.

      Good Government. Traffic Lights Aren't All That Weird. Vote Democratic!

      by HL Mungo on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:16:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  to be fair, our favorite fake news anchor (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ed in Montana, Miss Blue, Do Tell, khereva

      kinda said the same thing on the 8 Nov show.

      Our health... is an integral part of society [and] to the future of this country and to not make an investment in that is crazy. -- Michael J Fox -7.63/-6.41

      by vome minnesota on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:35:26 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That is such a small comment. (21+ / 0-)

      It's apparent to me some paid very little attention to exactly who got elected this past Tuesday.  I'm not sure what you consider to be a "Real" Democrat but I suspect you're referring to the type of liberal politician from the 60's and 70's.  I hate to tell you this but AT THIS TIME that type of politician is about as popular as tie dye T-shirts.  

      Senator Obama is one of the brightest and most articulate politicians we have seen since President Clinton, and I have no doubt that he will one day be president himself.  Further, he's on our side and most thinking democrats are glad.

      So before you start suggesting we start eating our best and brightest, let me suggest you step back and see who we elected and you'll see they were former republicans, conservatives, and moderates; not liberals.

      "Neocon delenda est"

      by Rakkasan on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:41:00 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  A real Democrat,,,, (24+ / 0-)

        is Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, John Murtha, John Conyers, etc.

        Obama is proving a very good student to his mentor, Joe Lieberman.

        Feh.  You can have him.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2830+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

        by Miss Blue on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:49:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Bullshit, Miss Blue. (15+ / 0-)

          For starters, Obama was one of the few Democratic politicians to come forcefully against the war in '02 - in contrast to Lieberman, Harold Ford and Murtha.  And Boxer supported Lieberman after the primary whereas Obama supported Lamont.

          I suppose that we can expect a lot a cheap unfounded shots against Obama over the next two years for the simple reason that he will be one of the frontrunners for the '08 nomination.

          (-2.75,-4.77) America let Bush play with its Army and he broke it.

          by Sam I Am on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:27:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sam,, (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            VaAntirepublican, Scout Finch

            Not trying to throw a cheap shot, just calling it how I see it.

            Boxer did not pro-actively support Joe after the primary, and neither did Obama support Lamont.  If he went to CT to campaign for Ned, please remind me because I must be forgetting it.

            I do not want to see Obama run, but I ONLY support Dems.  He gets the nod he'll have my vote.  However, I sure the hell hope it doesn't play out that way.

            "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2830+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

            by Miss Blue on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:12:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I was angered becuse you didn't seem to have (0+ / 0-)

              any problem with the racial slur "Uncle Tom" that was used is the post that began this sub-thread.

              It is one for dkmilch thing to criticize Obama and quite another to use a racial slur to describe him.  

              (-2.75,-4.77) America let Bush play with its Army and he broke it.

              by Sam I Am on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:56:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  So ... (4+ / 0-)

          Being a Democrat is about talking tough rather than taking strong progressive stand on the issues? Murtha over Obama?

          Usually you make sense.

          •  Progressive? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sleep deprived

            What exactly has he DONE?  

            That is my whole point here - Obama, TO DATE, has been all talk.  And alot of that talk has reflected negatively on the Democrats.

            I"m in southern WI.  Anything Obama does usually makes coverage in our news.  I have yet to hear of anything he's done that shows a "strong progressive stand".

            I realize he's a junior Senator, and he's young.  I'm prepared to change my opinion of him when he gives me reason, and I still have some hope he will.

            But the talk of running for Prez scares me.  I see a male Hilary.  By that I mean, a centrist.   Without the benefit of any experience.  

            "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2830+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

            by Miss Blue on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:08:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well (12+ / 0-)

              Let's go to the tote board and see how others rate Obama

              Groups giving Obama 100% ratings:
              Planned Parenthood
              National Trust for Historic Preservation
              NAACP
              NEA
              American Wilderness Coalition
              Illinois Environmental Council
              Children's Defense Fund
              PeacePAC
              NOW
              International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers
              AFSCME
              Americans for Democratic Action
              Alliance for Retired Americans
              Population Connection
              NETWORK, A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby

              He got A+ ratings from
              Citizens for gLobal Solutions
              The Genocide Intervention Network--Darfur Scores

              ACLU gave him an 83%
              Leadership COuncil 94%
              American Association of University Women - 90%
              US PIRG 86%
              SEIU 94%
              Illinois AFL-CIO 89%
              National Journal said he's more liberal than 83% of the other Senators in Congress
              Secular Coalition for America - 90%
              Citizen Action Illinois -96%
              Disabled American Veterans - 92%

              He got 0's or F's from:
              NRA
              National Right to Life
              Americans or Tax Reform (i.e. give the money to the rich)
              Gun Owners of America
              Federation for American Immigration Reform (an anti-immigrant rights group)

              Yeah. I can see why you'd want to undermine this "Uncle Tom" who's clearly just pretending to be a liberal by voting that way.

              Lock and Load, circular firing squad!

              Your vote doesn't count if your vote isn't counted.

              by nightsweat on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:27:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Don't. (0+ / 0-)

                I am not the one who posted "Uncle Tom", so don't attribute it to me.

                Further, if you're going to reply to one of my comments, please address what was in the comment, not something else.

                "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2830+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

                by Miss Blue on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:13:25 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I quote (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dvd Avins, hrh

                  That is my whole point here - Obama, TO DATE, has been all talk.  

                  No, he hasn't.  See above on his voting patterns, which was a direct response to the content of your comment.

                  Your vote doesn't count if your vote isn't counted.

                  by nightsweat on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:42:35 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh please (0+ / 0-)

                    voting against Republican bills is REAL tough.  Hell, Lieberman can say he voted with Dems 90% of the time although he worked actively to undercut the party.  This type of vote analysis is BS.  How has he lead?  What has he taken a stand on?  

                    And how dare he lecture the Dems on disrespecting religion (find me an elected Dem who has EVER done that) while ignoring the Republican lies that try to pervert Christianity?  He needs to aim his guns at those who have truely sullied religion.

              •  Will Rogers was right. (0+ / 0-)

                Some people have accused me of belonging to an organized political party.  I deny that.  I'm a Democrat

                I can't believe what I'm reading here today.  Has all common sense been evacuated from our brains?  Is this what happens when your party has a majority in Congress, because it certainly happened to the GOP.

                Or are you people trolls trying to stir the pot?

              •  Oh Snap! No s/he didn't?! Hell yeah! n/t (0+ / 0-)
            •  obama is good at saying (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Miss Blue

              all of those warm and fuzzy's, but when you analyze them, they are shallow. he reminds me of an oprah-freidman love child.

              also, the dems may have, with webb, a teddy roosevelt, or they could screw it up, and webb could go independent in 08. the country is ready for independents, and he knows his history.

              REALITY IS NOT ALWAYS PROBABLE,OR LIKELY. JORGE LUIS BORGES

              by AltruisticSkeptic on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:51:30 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  those shallow, warm and fuzzy votes... (0+ / 0-)

                those shallow, warm and fuzzy words of opposition to the war that have never wavered.

                Some here are certifiable. Congenital losers who simply cannot accept that sometimes, not for anything they've done to deserve it, a rare and uniquely gifted leader appears before them and what do they do? They tear him to shreds. And then what? You're still stuck on the island -- the pilot of your rescue helicopter -- the interloper -- is in a heap, cannibalized -- and the there's nothing but empty sky and horizon in all directions.

                Go pile on the little manmade raft you call Feingold. Think we'll all fit? Think it'll hold up in the rough seas? Is there room on it for more, others you'll need to pick up along to way, because without others, you won't make it.

                Is this too abstract for the Lord of the Flies on the Kos Island?

                •  yeah we don't deserve (0+ / 0-)

                  him. we did not deserve rumsfeld either, according to rumsfeld. give me a break. excuse me for not seeing the shining gift that fell from heaven into our laps. you have to earn some things in life. we learned that with bush. obama is not a natural born leader; what does that mean anyway? i do not believe in that myth, i believe there should be some there there. leaders are made from true experience, not true grooming.

                  REALITY IS NOT ALWAYS PROBABLE,OR LIKELY. JORGE LUIS BORGES

                  by AltruisticSkeptic on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 12:08:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Yea, we need another Dem leader (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dkmich

                  who aims his rhetorical guns to the left.  That'll work.  Eight years of Clinton devastating the party was enough.  We need a leader who lectures the Republicans, not us.

            •  cannot agree more (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Miss Blue, flautist

              That is exactly my problem with Obama. He gives great speeches (especially the Democratic Convention), but I haven't seen him ACT on anything. Also, in interviews where he has leeway to speak, he doesn't come off as being very strong on any issue.

              I'm more disappointed that the Dem party is promoting this type of Democrat rather than people like Feingold, Kucinich, Conyers.

              May be I'm further left than most, but what happened to the ideals of a society that takes care of its elderly, sick, and impoverished? A country that is strong from the inside out, not a country that projects strength in the form of bullying?

              There are a lot of possibilities and opportunities for  creating this society right now, but the centrist Dems run away from that.

              •  The democrats have just taken control. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                joemcginnissjr, ccyd

                At what point have democrats been able to do anything except make speeches.  I admire the man because he believes we can work together to get things done, and he has no tolerance for bitter partisanship.

                "Neocon delenda est"

                by Rakkasan on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:41:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Obama's speeches are what worry me (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dkmich

                  Especially when he attacks Dems for doing things our elected officials have never done like denigrating religion.  He needs to point out how the Republicans have denigrated and perverted religion, not us.  

              •  It's kind of hard to act (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sam I Am

                When you are in the minority. Especially the most recent Senate. If he doesn't do anything THEN you can go after him during the next session of Congress.

                The problem with some Obama critics is they were expecting another Paul Wellstone. Wellstone was lucky when he came into the Senate the Democrats were the majority and he was able to address his issues he was passionate for.

                But where was the same Wellstone when the Congressional Black Caucus was looking for a single senator to denounce the 2000 Presidential election? I didn't hear from him at all.

            •  he's been in the minority -- you can't pass (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hrh

              legislation in the minority. you know that. And if it's about what he's done, what did Lamont do before he ran?

              and embracing Murtha (a hawk, a social conservative) over Obama is truly a mindf*ck.

              this place gets so twisted and upside down.

              We should be heralding Obama. The most popular politician in America right now -- and he's a Dem and social progressive and was against the war in Iraq from day one and has never wavered.

              See the whole picture.

          •  By the by,,, (0+ / 0-)

            thanks for the compliment, lol.

            Usually you make sense.

            "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2830+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

            by Miss Blue on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:09:40 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Oh please. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lochners Bakers

          Time was real democrats were proud to boast of a "big tent." Presumably that would include those capable of understanding, accepting and working with many points of view.

          "Your point. Their village." --Zhivago to Strelnikov

          by ailanthus on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:44:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The big tent (0+ / 0-)

            I remember that big tent.  Racists.  Union members.  Traditional liberals. What a stew.  And the minute we had a true civil rights movement the tent fell apart.

            •  Yes. (0+ / 0-)

              Just as soon as the walls were breached by the civil rights movement then every group with an axe to grind followed them in.  Then it wasn't just about the right to strike and earn a livable wage, it then became about  sex, welfare, crime, abortion, school prayer, etc.  Then it became less about finding common ground and more about either you're with us or against us.  Not unlike some of the rhetoric I see tossed around in kos.

              "Neocon delenda est"

              by Rakkasan on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:02:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Time was... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greeseyparrot

            ...politicians of principle wouldn't have run away with their tails between their legs every time some TV bimbo attacked the whole party and at least half the country with obvious lies. This is what the frustration is all about.

            We won this election in a landslide. Let's start seeing Obama, Biden, Reid, etc. act like it. Actually, I think we will see this now that the curtain's been lifted on this charade that was "most people support wingnuts, just look, they all keep calling the station accusing us of having a liberal bias!"

            If they let these TV and radio cretins continue to belittle them and the party after the mandate they've just been handed, then we've seen their true colors IMO.

            "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

            by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:04:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Murtha is a "Real Democrat"? Ha! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hrh, greeseyparrot

          Murtha's voting record:
          anti-choice
          anti-gay
          anti-gun control

          But Murtha was anti-war so that makes him a "real democrat" unlike Obama but like Feingold, Boxer and Conyers.  Gimme a break.  

          Progressive Punch ranked Murtha's voting record as #187 out of 202 Democrats in the House.  Obama was ranked #8 out of 45 Democrats in the Senate.

          I am never in favor of invoking ideological purity tests, but if they are going to be invoked let's at least know who is pure and who isn't.

          •  When was the last time Murtha criticized (0+ / 0-)

            his fellow Democrats on a national platform?  Oh, and gun-control aint very high on the Dem agenda.  

            When you say a Democrat isn't a real Democrat because they aren't pro-choice or pro-gay marriage, you're playing into the Republican wedge issue strategy that allowed the electorate to ignore their VERY unpopular agenda.

      •  your slip is showing when you imply (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, gustynpip

        that good Democrats are former Republicans. If your argument is that you want people to embrace the big tent, I suggest you start by being inclusive even when you feel others are not.

        -8.38, -8.00 Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice. --Thomas Paine

        by hyperstation on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:08:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you saying good democrats can't.... (0+ / 0-)

          ...be former republicans?  Tell that to Wesley Clark, and Webb.  Being a REAL democrat is in the eye of the beholder.  I believe we should be open to everyone while it's apparent to some that we should close the party to anyone who isn't the Newt Gingrich of the left.

          "Neocon delenda est"

          by Rakkasan on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:19:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I am not saying that at all. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hrh, greeseyparrot

            I'm pointing out that you said that "our best and our brightest" Democrats are "former Republicans, conservatives, and moderates, not liberals." I take issue with that, particularly the placement of "former Republicans" at the top/front of the list, and because it implies that good Democrats are former Republicans and that liberals are not part of the best and the brightest. Baloney.

            Your response to the original comment is as divisive as the Uncle Tom comment and nearly as unnecessarily hyperbolic.

            I happen to think you make some good points, though I disagree in part. I'm just trying to keep it on the level of actual constructive discourse and not have it degenerate into meaningless knee-jerk judgments based on ideological name calling.

            Perhaps I should have just taken the "uncle tom" commenter to task, but frankly, your response bothered me more.

            I'm a liberal. A progressive. A socialist. I'm on the LEFT. And I'm a good Democrat. I want the moderates in the tent, and I welcome the ex-Republicans, the moderates and the conservatives as long as we can agree on a broad platform. I'm here to stay until the electoral college is done away with and we have proportional representation or a parliamentary system, at which point multi-party systems make more sense. Don't like me here? Too bad.

            I humbly submit that the system works best when we debate with all vigor but join together to move forward as one party for the good of the union.

            -8.38, -8.00 Moderation in temper is always a virtue; but moderation in principle is always a vice. --Thomas Paine

            by hyperstation on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 09:59:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's kind of funny, too, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hyperstation

              that so many people here are developing Beatlemania-style crushes on Jim Webb, running him for president etc., when he hasn't done ANYTHING yet except get elected Senator.

              It's depressing that the Macho Strongman archetype is still so appealing.

              Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

              by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 11:39:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have been pretty much in accord with (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hyperstation, dkmich

                what you're saying about Webb, but I gotta admit that I find hugely encouraging his willingness to embrace, rather than run from, the term class warfare, something I've not seen in a lot of those regarded as being more reliably to the Left.

                Behold the Lambs of Kos.

                by greeseyparrot on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 12:03:37 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, I like that too (0+ / 0-)

                  but notice that even though he goes out on a leftist limb for that, he never mentions women and women's rights.

                  It's the nettle that he hasn't brought himself to grasp.

                  Especially given his history, I'd think one of the first things he'd do when turning into a Democrat would be to disavow his earlier sexism and talk loud and long about helping women, their role in the "class warfare", etc.

                  He never apologized for the "Women Can't Fight" thing until his hand was forced by Allen, and even then his apology was evasive.  

                  I have to say, I think women and women's issues are his blind spot.  He has a long way to go to prove himself to me on this score.

                  Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

                  by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 02:33:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  On who's side, exactly? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo

        When I saw him tooling around DeKalb County in his cornmobile I got the distinct impression he was on the corporate farmer's side.

      •  Never a fan of Bill Clinton (0+ / 0-)

        so I wouldn't consider that a compliment to Obama.  But, you're right on in lumping them together.  They are charismatic politicians who will not effectively promote progressive causes.

        Having said that, I'll add that we still don't know enough about Obama.  So far I don't like what I see, beginning with his unnecessary closeness to Lieberman.  If he considers Lieberman his mentor, look out.

      •  Tie dye T-shirts (0+ / 0-)

        Actually I believe their popularity is resurgent.

    •  That's just stupid. (6+ / 0-)

      What could be more useless than to call B.O an Uncle Tom? Who has he enabled? He might not be enough "truth-to-power" for your liking, but that doesn't mean he's a sell-out.

    •  I know this sounds ridiculous (4+ / 0-)

      but I would take Webb as the candidate. If I can't have  Gore or Clarke.

      My file on RedState.org: Adigal: Another one of them left wing girls way too smart for our own good. Her phones need to be monitored.

      by adigal on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:00:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Adigal, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Do Tell, DC Scott

        I admit I'm giddy from my slight acquaintance with him.  But really what do we know about him.  I'm going to do some research though.  

        Anyone here from Virginia who has good knowledge of the Senator elect?

        I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

        by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:05:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think his main flaw is that he has been married (0+ / 0-)

          and divorced a few times more than average.  

          Thank you, Howard Dean!

          by Do Tell on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:14:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Strong Repub credentials. (5+ / 0-)

          He was Sec Navy under Reagan and made some pretty strong comments against women serving in the Armed Forces when that debate heated up in the late 70s/80s.  HERE. A retired Navy officer friend, woman and lives in VA, doesn't trust him.  

          That said, that debate took place 25 years ago in the midst of a huge cultural shift in America in general and the Armed Forces in general.  There were plenty of women appearing in TV ads in the past few weeks touting Webb's support.  So I'd say there's more than one aspect to that story;  maybe he's evolved.  He did switch parties recently, so we've got a conservative Dem, yup.  

          I'm looking at Webb as a good officer (he was a Marine) who is horrified, disgusted, and pissed off  at what this group of idiots/criminals in the WH have done to our country and our Armed Services.  He's "not a politician" - he's a Marine officer.  :) The high-ranking officers I know really have a profound love of this country, a knowledge of its history, and venerate the principles on which it is founded.  They really, really do believe in supporting and defending the Constitution against all enemies, domestic and foreign.  They also have been, well, horrified at the Bush administration.  And it is very hard for them to say that, given their loyalty to the Office of the Presidency.  (I know, I know, there are officer sell-outs . . . e.g., John McCain).  

          I'd say Webb's one of the good guys who's gonna piss some people off on both sides of the aisles.  And razor smart.  Just got a book of his called "Born Fighting," the history of the Scot-Irish in shaping America.  This man's no dummy whatever, knows his history, knows how this country works, and isn't going to take any crap off any sonorous windbag.  Virginia will be well served by him, especially given the idiot he replaces.

          And btw, tomorrow's Veteran's Day.  We owe them, past and present, a profound thank you.  I believe this election has served them well.

          Had enough? Vote Democrat, 2006.

          by DC Scott on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:36:51 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Context on his commentary on women (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DC Scott

            at that time what he said did represent many officers in the military. In the Navy (and the Corps is part of the Navy), tradition is a very time honored issue particularly amongst officers.  Changes to the tradition of the Naval Academy was tantamount to the destruction of that institution.  In my view, he did exactly what many others did or would do - object vociferously and when told that it was a done deal, saluted and went about the process with vigor. During his time as SecNav he did a lot of good things to help military women.  

            For the record, since I am a ROTC type and not a NAG (Naval Academy grad aka ring knocker) I took some delight in the hoohah kicked up back then.  I had several female midshipmen colleagues who were topnotch and a joy to work with.  I didn't see the big deal but knew it was all about change and threats to tradition.  Althoug I must confess to some not so progressive sentiments as to having women on ships - that's another story.

            •  Many of his anti-women comments were anti-men! (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              hrh, barbwires, newfie, DC Scott
              Much like Webb's other writings, it really is worth reading in full rather than in selected excerpts, which is what happened.  Many of Webb's big arguments against women in combat positions at the time were not so much attacks on women but on men.  Here's three of his big points:

              1) The background of the men likely to be in the armed forces is sexist and reacts poorly to women  
              2) Men would become negatively distracted by having the women around them.
              3) Men are more violent than women, and the armed forces training needs to tap into that.

              There's a lot of men and women who might agree with the above anti-men sentiments, for a whole lot of different reasons.  I can believe in the value of same-sex academies (his proposed idea for how to get women involved), the veracity of criminal statistics showing more violent crime committed by men than women and science behind it, and not hate on men or women.   Men and women are fundamentally different.  "Different but equal" is far easier to say than to do, as anyone who's ever dealt with Title IX can attest.  

              Yup, Jim Webb knew less about women as a young man han he does as an older man.  That puts him in company with billions of other men.  

              •  You got that right! n/t (0+ / 0-)

                Had enough? Vote Democrat, 2006.

                by DC Scott on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:08:09 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I think he has been proven right (0+ / 0-)

                with the number of rapes, assaults, and harrassments that take place at the Naval Academy.

                •  that has nothing to do with biology (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DC Scott

                  and everything to do with lack of discipline and poor leadership/management on the part of the higher-ups.  The military academies are supposed to teach discipline and obedience to orders.  If the higher-ups wanted to stop the rapes, assaults, and harassments, they could.  It's the macho culture, not biology, that's responsible.  Webb has done a great deal to keep that culture firmly entrenched.  This is one of his big character flaws, in my opinion.

                  Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

                  by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 11:09:03 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  He also implied in the Women Can't Fight article (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DC Scott, other72384

                that rising rape statistics and wifebeating were due to feminist advances in society, presumably making men angry at women:

                They are telling us something about the price we are paying, in folly on the one hand and in tragedy on the other, for the realignment of sexual roles.

                I agree, it's important to read the article in full; only then can one grasp the full inanity and closed-mindedness of it.  Granted, it's so incoherently written that it's not exactly clear what Webb was saying, but unpleasant little bits like the above quote stick up like loose tacks in a carpet.

                Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

                by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 11:03:03 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, it reads like Webb rambles sometimes (0+ / 0-)
                  And yeah, his take on those rape statistics is idiotic with what we know today.  But, "women's lib being responsible for more rapes" was prevailing wisdom of the time even among some prominent rape researchers of the era.  I think Webb was repeating a meme from Eugene Kanin of Purdue who, like him or not, was not exactly a crackpot.  

                  And again, note he was talking about men being thuggish as much as anything.  If someone came to you and said "women shouldn't be in the Navy because the men are sexist violent criminals and easily distracted and we don't want to complicate our lives and we don't get women", would you see that as a slam on men or women?  

                  •  it's a slam on women, obviously (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DC Scott

                    because the idea behind it is "OK, women, get lost, we here in the Navy are sexist thugs and we like it that way."  

                    "Men are thuggish, it's a biological fact" is basically the same thing as "Boys will be boys".

                    One of the flaws in Webb's article is that he doesn't reconcile how the service academies, which are supposedly training young men to such a degree of discipline that they overcome their fear of death and believe that pain is irrelevant (witness Webb's detailed description of being physically tortured as a plebe), are somehow incapable of training them to deal with women as equals and refrain from raping and sexually harassing them.

                    Indeed, the impression I got of the theme of the article was masculinity = violence = sexuality - "Boys will be boys, and boys will kill and maim and treat women as fuckable objects.  It's the way things are and the way things ought to be."

                    For that reason, it was an extremely disturbing article, and not in the way I expected (I was expecting something along the lines of "conservative Navy guy doesn't want to break with tradition, doesn't want to see women come home in body bags").

                    Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

                    by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 02:55:57 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh, there's tons of flaws... (0+ / 0-)
                      ...but when I read his ending, where he muddles his way to the "we should revisit the all-woman academy idea", and starts talking about not getting women in a way that would fit well in Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, I can relate to that.  Heck, when I was his age, I could -really- relate to that.  
                      •  I suggest you read the ending again (0+ / 0-)

                        I don't think that's what he says.

                        Yes, it's hard to tell what he's trying to say, and the article ends abruptly, as if an editor chopped off some stuff.  But what's in the article I read doesn't bear out your interpretation.

                        Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

                        by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:42:07 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  he also blew off the Tailhook scandal (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DC Scott

              as "a few drunken aviators" and denied that it had anything to do with entrenched sexism in the Navy culture.

              Alarming, to say the least.

              Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

              by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 11:49:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Depends on how you define "scandal" (0+ / 0-)
                Here's Webb's famous speech about Tailhook:

                http://www.pbs.org/...

                To his way of thinking, the real scandal was that Navy leadership was so boneheaded and weak-willed that it let Tailhook turn into a witch hunt.  In that context, he certainly didn't blow it off.

                What's the more scandalous aspect of one of today's current scandals -- Foley's pedophilia, or Hastert and Rove's handling of Foley knowing what they knew?  Reasonable people can differ, here.

                •  Yeah, he always blames it on politics from above (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DC Scott

                  It'll be interesting to see how he views things now that he's a politician himself.  

                  To be honest, one of the reasons I have my doubts about Jim Webb is that I have a similar ethnic background and I know that it's very, very, VERY hard for us stubborn Celtic fuckheads to change our minds about anything.

                  It's like John Wayne said about Kim Darby in True Grit: "She reminds me of me!"

                  On the other hand, we're the type you want on your side in a bar fight.  So I'm glad he's on our side.

                  Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

                  by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 03:09:37 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I don't know how smart he is (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DC Scott

            The only thing I've read of his is the "Women Can't Fight" article.  Quite apart from its anti-feminist premise, it was unfocused and incoherent, and, frankly, silly.  His recent responses trying to get out from under it weren't very intelligent either.

            I plan to read Born Fighting sometime, being Scots-Irish myself and an avid reader of history.  Having read some reviews and other info on it, I have my doubts as to the book's accuracy.  But I'll have to read it first before I say any more.

            Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

            by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 11:48:18 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  New Yorker article (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hrh, Cream City

          This recent article in the New Yorker will dampen your enthusiasm.

          SOUTHERN DISCOMFORT
          The strangest Senate race of the year.
          by PETER J. BOYER

    •  I feel the same about Obama, he has a sense of (8+ / 0-)

      entitlement too early in his political career.  And he is one of my senators.

      Besides, I think that a woman and a black man would make the worst losing ticket in the history of America.  

      Thank you, Howard Dean!

      by Do Tell on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:11:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obama is a windbag (7+ / 1-)

      destined to get in everyone's way, push himself into the space that he wants, crowding out others and then pop like a balloon when he gets caught on something he hasn't even got caught up in yet, but (g-d forbid) I'm afraid he will. If he really wants to help the people, rather than himself, he ought to cultivate much stronger roots before he tries to put out fruit.

      all of us are pupils in the eyes of God

      by SassyFrass on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:16:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Stupid effing comment if ever there was one (14+ / 0-)

      What exactly is an Uncle Tom? What--Conyers and Ford are good black men in your book of rules, but someone Obama isn't? How exactly should a black person behave so that s/he doesn't get tagged by a descriptive for which there is no equivalent for a white person?

      Shame on you and everyone else you gleefully rec'ed this comment because Obama has never been the flavor of the month around here.

    •  Easy there, big fella. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lochners Bakers

      Sure, we like our pugnacious dems, but conciliators are valued property too. Ever hear of good-cop-bad-cop?

      "Your point. Their village." --Zhivago to Strelnikov

      by ailanthus on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:39:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No good-cop-bad-cop here, (0+ / 0-)

        just real Democrats on the one side, and enablers of Rethugs on the other.

        •  What is this "real democrat" thing? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hrh, Tonedevil

          Is it something like a "real man" who adheres rigidly to a single posture and can never admit to any weakness nor perceive any subtlety? Who gets to decide what is a "real democrat."  Are we going to have a "party line" with purges, loyalty oaths, show trials and children ratting out their parents? Real democrat, my ass. There is no such thing. It's an oxymoron. Demos has a few hundred million heads and each head has its own perspective. Why this impulse to chop so many of them off?

          "Your point. Their village." --Zhivago to Strelnikov

          by ailanthus on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:40:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  the electioneering has begun (0+ / 0-)

        10-1 dkmich strongly favors some Dem for the Presidential nominee in '08 and it ain't Obama.

        Now that the Dems have won back congress - I anticipate mud-slinging on this website against all the various Dem contenders is gonna get pretty fierce.

    •  Obama sells us Democrats out (6+ / 0-)

      almost every time he opens his mouth.  I think that's why the MSM are rah rah rahing for him and it says a lot about him that he goes along with it.

      •  I definitely agree! (4+ / 0-)

        He's been one of my biggest disappointments from 2004 along with my senator Salazar.  Neither of them know how to take a principaled stand on anything.  

      •  Not true. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hrh

        There's a time to fight and a time to bury the hatchet. There are war chiefs and peace chiefs. Yes Dems have been burned by excessive compromise and have needed (and still need) the corrective of combative candidates. But a true leader needs to be able to respect and encompass many points of view. Compromise is a necessary tool of any political intention. Or are Democrats now the party of "you're either behind my scorched earth program or you're with the Republicans."

        "Your point. Their village." --Zhivago to Strelnikov

        by ailanthus on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:56:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Tell me how many Democrats (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Heart of the Rockies, corvo, seabos84

          would have a book published with such a self gratifying title during the run-up
          to one of  the most important elections during out lifetime?

          •  Tell me how many Democrats were against the war (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sam I Am, callmecassandra

            in 2002?

            Hmm, not "front-runner" Hillary Clinton.  Not John Kerry.  Not John Edwards.

            And show me any of our great white hopes with anything approaching the record of moral legislation on social justice and equality that Obama had in Illinois.

            But holy fuck, he said the word "God" and he published a book, he's clearly a traitor to his party (and, if the original commenter is to believed, his race) 9_9

            Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

            by ChicagoDem on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:45:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  My feeling is close to yours: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlueInARedState

          Compromise is a necessary tool of any political intention.

          But I would add one word: Compromise is a necessary tool of any honest political intention. What we've witnessed has not been "political intention," it's been "manipulative intention."

          What we've witnessed over the past 6 years has not been "politics" in the usual sense. It's been a total betrayal of Americans and a smack down of Democracy itself. Some of these "points of view" that you want to "respect and encompass" have been intentionally staged, deceptive manipulation of the public and I can't remember too many principled politicians standing up for just the simple truth when they've had the microphone.

          One doesn't have to be a forceful "truth-to-power" politician to follow this simple model:

          Corporate Media Bimbo: People say you're a wimp and a fuckup with no plan for anything.

          Democratic Politician being interviewed on TV for the whole world to see and judge: What people say that? Name the person saying this and I'll debate him. Otherwise SYFPH.

          "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

          by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:16:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  he knows what the corporations want (0+ / 0-)

        and what they will allow.

        REALITY IS NOT ALWAYS PROBABLE,OR LIKELY. JORGE LUIS BORGES

        by AltruisticSkeptic on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:08:24 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  An Uncle Tom Is A Race Traitor. Obama Hasn't (4+ / 0-)

      convinced me that he's the next FDR but he is not a race traitor.

    •  This is an ugly, racist remark (7+ / 0-)

      And fuck you for making it.  If you knew anything about Obama's history as a politician in Illinois, you'd know he's done far more for black people than you ever will.

      Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

      by ChicagoDem on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:47:21 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This thread is being freeped many times over (0+ / 0-)

        there are so many racist comments here, I am certain they are all from someone afraid to stand up and use their real name.

        "lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed"

        by yuriwho on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:57:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sure the commenter wishes... (0+ / 0-)

        ...s/he could take back the unfortunate metaphor.

        I don't think his/her comment had much of anything to do with race.  At least I didn't take it as having anything to do with race. I took the "Uncle Tom" reference to be a metaphor for someone who sides with an oppressor against his own out of fear. I may be wrong.

        "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

        by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:20:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  "Uncle Tom" in reference to a black (0+ / 0-)

          person is a racial slur plain and simple.

          The poster could have used race-neutral terms such as "enabler" or even "traitor" but he/she pointedly choose a term with racial ovetones.

          Shame on the poster and shame on the people who reccommended the comment.

          (-2.75,-4.77) America let Bush play with its Army and he broke it.

          by Sam I Am on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:26:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm just not sure it was done... (0+ / 0-)

            ..."pointedly" as you claim. It certainly wasn't the best choice, but was it an error? You seem to think not. I don't know.

            "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

            by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:29:22 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  You f'ked up your entire point with the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hrh

      'Uncle Tom' insult, drawing more attention to Obama's race instead his character.

      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

      by callmecassandra on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:54:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah...that was an unfortunate choice... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FutureNow

        ...of metaphors. That's my take. I surely agree with the point made. It surely was obscured by the knee-jerk, literal reaction to the term used.

        "...the pillaging of the most private human feelings [of grief] for political purpose...is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people." -A. Roy

        by nehark on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:22:32 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  To be sure (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nehark

          BUT I have to agree that Obama deserves a lot of scutiny for his willingness to pander (yes, you heard me!) to folks that refuse to recognize the value of the Establishment Clause.

          I have no doubt about the depth of Harry Reid's faith, but somehow I don't ever recall hearing him talk at length about the matter. The danger of theocracy is one of the most significant threats the current GOP presents, and yet Obama acts as if he wants to lead us right up to the edge to feel how cool and comfy the comingling of religion and politics can be.

          My other car is a pair of boots.

          by FutureNow on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:24:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I'm sorry, but this is not acceptable (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hrh, Headlight

      Actually wait... I'm not sorry at all. Unless you're African American yourself, you don't have any business spewing this kind of vitriol. Calling a black person an Uncle Tom is the hydrogen bomb of all insults. And if you said this comment in front of me, I'd probably knock the teeth out of your head.

    •  It sounds like complacency is setting in already. (0+ / 0-)

      "If he or Hillary are the Party's nominee, I won't be involved in helping either of them take the Presidency.  If my choice is a Dem. controlled House and Senate and another dumb ass Republican President (grid lock) or Dem control with a K Street Dem President, I'll take gridlock."

      It seems a little odd to me that when control of congress depends entirely on the likes of Joe Lieberman (whose decision to stick with the Democrats is the only reason the senate came back) and the Blue Dogs (whose decision to stick with the party despite being shut out of power for the last 12 years gave us the house) you'd target Obama of all people as an unacceptable presidential prospect.  The majorities we hold as of January are built on our taking back the middle -- throwing out the ineffective Republican centerist enablers like Chafee and Jim Leach, and putting in centerists who see the Democratic party as more broadly accepting.  

      We have a coalition now that stretches from an independent socialist like Bernie Sanders to an independent republican-lite like Lieberman.  If we lose any of them to the other side, we lose the majority.  It's a little early for us to be deciding who gets to be in the club, when we need every member.  

      Though I have to also object to calling Obama an "uncle Tom" -- a phrase that is meaningless in this context except as a racist attack.  Is Hillary an uncle tom too, or is that a club only people of African descent are allowed to join?  

      Incidentally, Obama did more to win this victory than either Ford or Conyers -- he was a top draw for Democratic campaigns.  Ford couldn't help that he didn't do as much -- he just lost -- and Conyers isn't exactly a big draw on the campaign circuit. I think he was particularly important for the Maryland race, where Cardin was facing a serious possibility of losing a big chunk of black voters to the very competant Steele campaign.  

  •  I second that motion! (77+ / 0-)

    I was stunned. Webb completely threw the panel, who was phoning in a script that the election was all about the war, and that Webb was just an anti-war Republican in Dem clothing.

    His economic justice rant left them stunned, too. They had no idea what to think or say.

    Wow. Webb is indeed a maverick. But by God he's OUR maverick.

    "One does not discover new lands without consenting to leave sight of the shore for a very long time." -Andre Gide

    by pat208 on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:01:38 AM PST

  •  I think it's now painfully obvious (34+ / 0-)

    that NPR, a formerly reliable source of information, is no longer...that basically leaves the internets and the BBC, and hopefully in the future, IWT.

    In the beginning there was nothing...which exploded.

    by lucysdad on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:01:42 AM PST

  •  Well I have to hear this . . . (20+ / 0-)

    I hope they replay it.

    Signing on to what now?  The Baker plan?  How did he manage to do that months before anyone heard of the Baker plan?

    "In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

    by LithiumCola on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:02:22 AM PST

  •  Deomcrats take note! (60+ / 0-)

    This is exactly the sort of unflinching, combativeness that we need from the Dems.  Never allowing the reporter to frame the question, leaning into any attack and unafraid to tell the people what we stand for.  Jim Webb lead the way!

    "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" - James Madison

    by Hotspur18 on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:04:11 AM PST

  •  Isn't that a hoot. (29+ / 0-)

    I don't know if Obama said it or not, "the dems better prove themselves, now." The problem is that the republicans "have proven themselves" over the last 6 years. They have proven themselves incapable of handling national security, foreign relations or the economy, now the Democrats are expected to step up in clean up the mess left over from our frat-boy in chiefs 6 year long kegger. This is going to be "hard work" and will require sacrifices from the whole country and there will be little gratitude from anyone for the succesful conclusion of what must be done. Those who benefitted the most from the bush administration will be complaining the loudest.

    "Never give up, never surrender." CMDR Peter Quincy Taggart

    by irate on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:06:16 AM PST

  •  Good (28+ / 0-)

    I'll admit that I had my reservations about Webb, given his Republican past.  But I am very impressed by this:

    I ran on class issues and the war in this country between the wealthiest and our middle class.

    You know how sometimes former smokers turn into ardent anti-smokers?  Hopefully, this is what Webb has done regarding his politics.

    I think Jim Webb and Sherrod Brown will prove themselves two excellent additions to the U.S. Senate.

  •  Well.... (9+ / 0-)

    What is wrong with Obama saying Democrats had better govern? And, get over it, the news media has ALWAYS been pathetic at actually learning some facts before they do an interview. There are a few exceptions to this, but believe me, these kinds of interviews are not new. Journalism has a history of all sorts of deviancy, folks. A long and colorful history of inflaming wars, lying about politicians, misquoting people, and revealing itself to be dumber than dirt on history. The only critiques that get to be credible are those that come from people who actually know the history of journalism.

    Thereisnospoon posted a very good diary about the numbers nightmare for the GOP--what voters think about the GOP vs. The Democrats.

    What voters think is that it's time to govern. Americans want the legislative branch to actually do its job--what they do not want is for the Democrats to spend the next 2 years focusing on impeachment, or this investigation, that investigation, blah, blah, blah.

    Americans WANT the Democrats to DO Something about their economic situation, their health coverage, and their taxes. They want the Democrats to work on a way to get us out of a war.

    That's what Barack Obama is saying, and he's absolutely right.

    •  Does it really have to be voiced? (13+ / 0-)

      Of course, they have to govern well.  But what exactly does Sen. Obama prove by saying this a few days after election.  It's self evident, isn't it?  Did it come after a question, or is he just out there making these statements.  This was a newscast segment - there was no voiceover by the senator btw.  Since I believe he is now running for president, are we going to be treated to a daily report card by the Senator on the Dems conduct.  Won't the Republicans handle that?  We won't stay in power if there is constant carping among our own people.  He needs to be quiet for awhile.  

      Know you disagree, Signal - but we need some cohesion as we begin to clean up a real mess.    

      I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

      by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:35:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  There are others, then, that need to be quiet (0+ / 0-)

        The glorious morning after, I heard Murtha on NPR saying --insisting -- that he should be the Speaker of the House. Insisting. Wednesday morning. That's politics, sure, and the fight has to happen sometime, but to bring up infighting politics that soon seems so petty. Obama's "we need a plan" seems minor in comparison.
        Also, there's no shortage of plans out there, but who knows if the caucus has a coherent, cohesive plan that a plurality of Dems have signed on to?

      •  Seems to me (17+ / 0-)

        Barack learned the worst lessons Joe Lieberman could possibly teach him.  He's sounding more and more like Joe every day.  

        You want to criticize your party or make points that are obvious, do it in private.  Instead he's mugging on every media outlet he can find in anticipation of a presidential run.  

        I'm sure the people of Illinois didn't sign up for that when they elected him.

        Actually, it seems he's learned a few bad lessons from Joe.

        •  Exactly, as the very junior senator from my state (6+ / 0-)

          albeit with impressive credentials, he has yet to prove himself.  

          And already he is considering a run for President?

          He needs to make positive commentary about Democrats and our new leadership if he wants to assume that leadership.  

          We have enough Republicans, pundits and the MSM to criticize us publically, we don't need one of our own to do the same.  

          And I would feel the same way if another Dem said the same words.  

          Thank you, Howard Dean!

          by Do Tell on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:28:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  obama has received (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          roses

          the corporate blessing. why do you think all the corporate media have been carrying his water as of late? they approve, that should give us pause to think.0

          REALITY IS NOT ALWAYS PROBABLE,OR LIKELY. JORGE LUIS BORGES

          by AltruisticSkeptic on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:59:17 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  It's a shame (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          roses, Big Tent Democrat

          that Obama doesn't seem to feel the fellowship that so many other dems are feeling right now.  His words imply that he feels apart from the party.  I wonder if he is fearful, or if he's bitter.  Maybe some of this has to do with a concern about living up to standards while being in the majority, and knowing that no one is perfect.  

          I don't know what's beneath his sentiment, but I wish someone (other than Joe) would take him aside and try to talk to him and figure out what's wrong.  I am hoping that one of our best, wisest Senators will team up with Obama and become a new mentor, of sorts.

          So many dem candidates made it clear that the tent is indeed big, and it's not necessary to diss the party in order to fit in and to win as full fledged member of the Democratic party.  I hope Obama will consider this fact and reconsider his manner of speaking out.  A little positive attitude on his part would go a long way.  I'm not giving up on him yet, but I think he needs an attitude adjustment.

          "War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it." -- George Orwell

          by joanneleon on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:17:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes I truly hope I'm wrong (5+ / 0-)

        but this is WWLS.  

        Lieberman started out, as part of his 2004 run for the presidency (Joementum and all) by believing that somehow Dems would like him, as the preannointed VP candidate, and all he had to do was outfundy the fundies and chide the Democrats to appeal to Republicans, and he would be our Pres 2004 candidate.

        Just think What Would Lieberman Say, and if Obama says it, just shake your head and shed a little tear for what might have been.  Harry Reid, why DID you assign Obama to Joe????  What a waste.

        When Lieberman won in CT, I'm sure that it didn't help the situation.

        •  No, it wasn't a waste. It gave Obama (5+ / 0-)

          a chance to prove his natural inclinations a bit earlier is all.  No one learns to be a weasal.  They either have spine and will use it and show it regardless of the qualities of their mentors.  Or they don't, and it can't be given to them by their mentors.  

          Because Obama is unquestionably a great speaker, I initially had high hopes for him.  I've been watching what he says and does with great interest and great hopes.  But I see virtually Nothing, other than his speaking ability, that suggests he has the qualities for leading this country.  What I do see is a someone desparate to promote himself.  If it's at the expense of his collegues in the Democratic party, he has no problem with that.  I am not impressed at all so far.  I'm still holding out with a final opinion to give him a fair chance.  But I will have to hear a great deal more wisdom, ideas, and strength of character than I've seen or heard to date.

      •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jlb1972, Big Tent Democrat

        He is making noise with his mouth.  Will he be a black Biden?  One is enough.

    •  Admittedly, (27+ / 0-)

      I didn't hear this particular statement of Obama's.  But if it resembles some of his previous ones, the problem for me is that it comes off as chiding and patronizing rather than confident.  "The Dems had better get off their butts and govern" (to paraphrase) versus "The Dems will govern, and will fix this Republican mess."

      •  he keeps saying dems need to lead (28+ / 0-)

        and the obvious response is "well then, shut the fuck up and lead"  It's like the meta diaries around here, nearly pointless in most cases

      •  Exactly! (18+ / 0-)

        You said it perfectly Nancy.

        Obama's supposed to be a Dem.  So shouldn't his statements regarding the Dems governing by a "we" instead of "they"?

        I cried when I heard Obama speak at the Dem convention.  I donated to his campaign and was so hopeful we had a rising star.  I've been disappointed ever since.  

        At this point, he's worse than all talk - he's actively trashed Dems on occassion and he's got no cred to get that privilege.

        "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2830+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

        by Miss Blue on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:56:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Examples? (0+ / 0-)

          (-2.75,-4.77) America let Bush play with its Army and he broke it.

          by Sam I Am on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:31:48 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How about you give examples of anything (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            roses, Miss Blue, corvo, Big Tent Democrat

            positive he's contributed to the Democratic party besides his one great speech?  He bears the burden of Gaining our support.  We aren't somehow obligated to give it unless we're able to provide specific reasons not to.  There are Plenty of great Dems out there that long lists of examples of reasons to support can be provided.  So Obama has no right to presume he's qualified to critique the Democratic party, much less think he's ready to run for President, because he gave one great speech - how many years ago now?

          •  Sam,, (6+ / 0-)

            Obama has criticized the Democratic party with regard to religion - I"m sure you remember that whole episode.  This statement regarding the Dems proving themselves, stated as if he is a neutral bystander, is another example.

            Understand, I don't think Obama is the worst Dem that ever lived.  He's no Zell.  Some of his votes have definitely been the right way, and his stance on the war is admirable.  

            I love his charisma, and the power of his rhetoric.  BUT, charisma and rhetoric does not make an effective President.  Will it help him get elected?  Most definitely.  But if all he's got is rhetoric, we could have the Dem version of George.  Oh boy, I don't mean that literally - no way could he ever be that stupid.  But I hope you get my point.  I need to see alot more in the way of action to feel comfortable voting for this guy for President.  Whoever gets the job of cleaning up after Dumbass must be a proven problem-solver, with a track record.  Obama does not yet fill that mold.

            "But your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"--Prine Pay attention Georgie - 2830+ dead Americans. Jesus Christ, make it stop already.

            by Miss Blue on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:20:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  With respect to his votes (0+ / 0-)

              he has supported the liberal side every single time with the exception of the Rice confirmation.  Obama is one of the most liberal member of the Seante yet he has a moderate image.  To me, that combination is a very good thing.

              I say let Obama run in '08 and we will find out if he is indeed presidential material.  

              If he is the lightweight that his many detractors believe then an "Obama '08" campaign should be quite fun for them to watch.

              (-2.75,-4.77) America let Bush play with its Army and he broke it.

              by Sam I Am on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:36:33 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  I believe Obama's winning the Senate seat (0+ / 0-)

          has become a double edged sword. Everyone is putting all sorts of expectations into him that he can't fulfill. Perhaps he should've ran for Governor of Illinois instead.

          I didn't have the expectations that everyone had here. I was just happy to see an African American in the Senate, especially after Carol Mosley Braun dropped her golden opportunity during her Senate term. If he can do something, I'll be happy. But for goodness sake, I don't understand the vitriol against Obama at all.

        •  Oh please (0+ / 0-)
          Are you telling me you've never talked about what the Democrats should be doing in the 3rd person?  Howard Dean has done the exact same thing, including about religion, but he hasn't been attacked for that.  I'm pretty sure every politician has done it.  

          He's never "actively trashed Dems".  Sure, if you relied on the media's distortions of his speeches, you might get that opinion.  But if you listen/read to his entire speech, you'd know that was not true.

      •  My thoughts exactly. I will give him the benefit (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ed in Montana, Big Tent Democrat

        of the doubt, but I don't think we would have heard that comment from Durbin.  

        He is from freakin blue Illinois, not Mississippi.  

        Thank you, Howard Dean!

        by Do Tell on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:29:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  What is wrong with that (30+ / 0-)

      Is that Senator Obama is acting as commentator or even a scold, rather than an active participant. Senator Obama should say that "I (we the democats) intend to do this, I intend to hold hearings on that issue, I intend to pass legislation on that subject".  Not "Those democrats better do something useful now!"

      Senator Obama is taking too much time talking about how democrats should lead, but not providing the leadership himself. He's not a disinterested observer or a Faux News commentator; he's a U.S. Senator that actually has the power to change things.

      Burns Fired in 2006! I'm a Jon Tester Democrat!

      by Ed in Montana on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:52:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Anyone have a link to this this Obama Diary? (5+ / 0-)

      I'd like to check it out.

      At this point, I don't think Obama is in a position to lecture anyone about leadership.

      On the other hand, I think whoever called him "Uncle Tom" probably should consider apologizing.

      It seems inappropriate that Obama should be held to a higher standard of conduct because he's black, or that his race should become the issue, rather than his integrity as a man.

      Be the alien you want to see in the world.

      by PaulGaskin on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:57:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Paul, it wasn't a diary (3+ / 0-)

        it was on the newscast just before the Webb interview.  such as  "Sen. Obama has said ...."
        short and sweet.  

        I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

        by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:08:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Was it an actual recording (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sheba

          of Obama supposed statment or was it some NPR reporter's spin on what Obama said?  

          I cannot help but notice the eagerness of this board to jump on Obama without being able to point to an actual statment that supports their criticism.

          (-2.75,-4.77) America let Bush play with its Army and he broke it.

          by Sam I Am on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:35:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Who said it's racial? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        roses

        It seems inappropriate that Obama should be held to a higher standard of conduct because he's black, or that his race should become the issue, rather than his integrity as a man.

        I'm holding him to higher standard because when he ran for senator, he inspired me with his speeches, and gave me hope.  He didn't seem to be your average politico; he seemed to genuinely care about the Average Joe.  He was going to change things.

        I have been disappointed ever since I cast my vote for him, and I've never cared what color or sex he is.

        I'm hoping that Hillary doesn't run either, as she has shown she waits to see which way the wind is blowing before saying anything of substance.

        I want a true leader, not someone who just says what they think people want to hear, and so far Obama and Hillary aren't it.

        Throw LaHood out of Congress! Donate to Steve Waterworth - IL18 http://www.waterworthforcongress.com/

        by IL clb on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 10:25:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  Well, it's true (20+ / 0-)

    Dems have to start proving themselves now. Not so much the way NPR means it, but I want all these Dems we worked so hard to elect to do what we asked them to do when we voted for them.
    Take last night. Claire McCaskill was on MSNBC. Chris Matthews' first question is whether Claire thinks Bolton ought to be confirmed. Her answer? YES! Of course she also said she didn't know him very well. Huh? Lady, if you don't know about Bolton, where the hell have you been the last few years?
    Ay-yi-yi.
    Looks like w're gonna have to stay on top of some of these folks. We don't want them carrying the water for the R's. They've got to be
    against Bolton
    against the war
    against privatising Social Security
    for stem cell research
    ETc.
    Granted, Claire was probably nervous. Perhaps she misspoke. I admit I didn't hear the whole interview, but that first response really disappointed me.
    Looks like we've got our work cut out for us!

    All Truth is non-partisan

    by MA Liberal on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:26:59 AM PST

    •  Amen, I Agree (above) (9+ / 0-)

      I read this as a mandate for Democrats to actually DO SOMETHING for voters, because the GOP has spent the past six years waging an ideological "dirty war" and Americans are sick of it.

      They want Democrats to govern. If we do not, we, too, can be replaced.

    •  To defend McCaskill, at least slightly (7+ / 0-)

      McCaskill's focus is not foreign policy, although she is anti-war, and I doubt if she is very familiar with Bolton -- although when actually presented the case to decide, will likely vote against confirmation. She's a moderate with a liberal lean, so can be expected to vote solidly with the Democratic majority (it sure is nice to be able to use that description).

      Iraq wasn't the major issue in Missouri it was elsewhere, at least not directly. Talent was certainly hurt by his backing of the Bush Administration on the war, as on almost all other points, but Missourians heard little about that issue. Stem-cell research, Social Security and care for seniors were the main points of contention. McCaskill is a forceful advocate for stem-cell research -- as both Michael J. Fox and the passage of a ballot initiative made clear -- and preserving Social Security and Medicare.

      •  I heard her statement a little differently. (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        boadicea, roses, wader, oortdust, Do Tell, ERyd

        Yes - she said she was one who believed the president should have his nominees (perhaps she doesn't yet understand her power) but she implied the policy would be different now because of congress and that his tough days were now reined in.  

        As an aside - I think leadership should meet up with the new guys and have a meeting.  No, not to shut them up or tell them what to say - but to give some guidance as to handling the press.  

        I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

        by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:01:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Well, Bush's focus is not foreign policy, either (0+ / 0-)

        I think we can definitively say that experience is not a prerequisite to higher office. Though it sure helps.

    •  Yikes! (9+ / 0-)

      Yes, they have GOT to inform themselves (in depth) on these issues!  Didn't the Patriot Act get passed because nobody really read or understood it? (Admittedly, it was a midnight hour situation where people were given very little time to read and digest it, much less turn to their constituents for input).

      Sunlight is the best disinfectant

      by historys mysteries on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:57:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agree (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marjo, roses

        Dems need to get themselves into providing talking points. I don't want them to march in lock-step like the R's, but in the issues that are important like Bolton, Social Security, the war, I think we need to articulate the Democratic position.
        I know Claire may have not thought out her answer, but I find it hard to believe anyone, especially a Dem, could NOT know about Bolton.

        All Truth is non-partisan

        by MA Liberal on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:32:03 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah I caught that, too (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      roses, wader, Do Tell, ERyd

      comment above

      That's where I came in - but I appreciated that she went right on into how she would defer to FratBoyz' choice IF FratBoyz' clearly-stated policy was to support the UN. She said that, in that context, Captain Kangaroo was just implementing FratBoyz policy.

      But she also said she'd ask tough questions, and that it wasn't a done deal.

      I liked what I heard from her, a lot, and only bailed when Tweety started acting like Tweety again.

      "...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

      by RubDMC on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:25:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Ay-yi-yi! (6+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      drgardner, marjo, roses, lirtydies, corvo, ERyd

      Take last night. Claire McCaskill was on MSNBC. Chris Matthews' first question is whether Claire thinks Bolton ought to be confirmed. Her answer? YES! Of course she also said she didn't know him very well. Huh? Lady, if you don't know about Bolton, where the hell have you been the last few years?
      Ay-yi-yi.

      Needs to be repeated.  I was wondering the same thing.  I am no U.S. Senator, and I know all about Bolton, and how dangerous he is, and she doesn't?

      Again, let's give her one or two days to get up to speed, but she really needs to do her homework and get a  coach for these shows.  

      Thank you, Howard Dean!

      by Do Tell on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:34:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  I live in VA (29+ / 0-)

    Jim Webb is a class act.  All through this campaign every time you heard Macacawitz speak it was the same tired sound bite coming out of his lips, but Webb never once used the same talking points that I remember.  He did try to get his point across but he wasn't a parrot, repeating the same few words over and over.

    He also never once, during all the interviews I saw and heard, say anything personally negative about Allen.  Not once.  Yeah, he used some negative ads but I think that was sort of beyond his immediate control, and I didn't pay attention to the ads from either side cause they all sucked.

    As for having no plan for Iraq, um, as far as I can tell the democrats haven't been in power.  The democrats didn't have an administration full of "experts" to formulate a plan.  I think it's fair to say the democrats aren't in a position to have a plan, but ARE in a position to be willing to discuss the situation now that they have a bit more control and help forumlate a plan that isn't the same old stay the course rhetoric we've seen for the past 3 years.

  •  Dusting off the old memes (28+ / 0-)

         Well, it's starting. NPR and the rest of the MSM are already trying to paint the Democrats as fractious and divided. Plus, they want to make them all about being anti-war too. This way they can avoid talking about things the Democrats would like to do that challenge the status quo they've worked so hard to keep.  
          Notice too there's been very little (that I've heard) how re-nominating Bolton is a deliberate challenge to the Democrats from a president who's being portrayed as eager to be sweet and reasonable.
         For years the GOP has been painting the Democrats as a party of fringe extremists (Wild-Eyed Liberals!!) and the MSM has gotten very comfortable with that. They don't want to have to get off their butts and do some real reporting when they can just spout the "Common Wisdom" from Rove, Rush, Fox News, et. al. They keep trying to paint the Democrats as suddenly having become more conservative.
       How about the Republicans became so extreme, it finally became obvious to the voters that the Democrats were the real center?  Examing that idea honestly would force the MSM to rethink a lot of what they've been mindlessly spouting for years. Too much like real work for them, is my guess.
         It's going to be a long campaign to re-program the talking heads into addressing the reality-based world. Webb made a good start.

    "No special skill, no standard attitude, no technology, and no organization - no matter how valuable - can safely replace thought itself."

    by xaxnar on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:36:32 AM PST

    •  Hillary Rodham Clinton (9+ / 0-)

      In her book "Living History" writes that within three months after the 1992 presidiential election, the republicans had programmed the mainstream media with all the anti-dem talking points and the new Clinton administration bascially lost control of the public debate within the first year in office.

      Expect exactly the same tactics to be used by the repubs and the corporate media within the next few months. Us progressive dems can easily have won the election and lose the debate within the next few months.

      Burns Fired in 2006! I'm a Jon Tester Democrat!

      by Ed in Montana on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:02:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Poor Bill Clinton was a masochist. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RubDMC, oortdust

        Clinton was a masochist. I feel sympathetic toward him, but I won't ever feel the same sense of victimization and outrage that some people feel on his behalf.

        Self-respecting Democrats should not allow themselves to partake in Clinton's self-pity. He did not have to lie to cover up his mistress. He did not have to bow his head to Bush.

        Clinton could have taken the dignified option and simply refused to allow his dick to become the center of attention.

        All it would have taken would have been a stubborn refusal to talk about it. Instead he chose to lie about it again and again. I still can't believe he let them take his pants down like that.

        Waco was Bill's biggest mistake. Also his anti-labor, pro-corporate legislation, his continuing the war on certain drug users, his grovelling in the face of Republican wrath, etc.

        I'm not sure where on the list Depleted Uranium goes, but that was a mistake too.

        We don't need to keep on carrying Clinton's baggage. He was a way better president than Bush, but there was a lot of room for improvement.

        Be the alien you want to see in the world.

        by PaulGaskin on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:14:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  In Clinton's defense hindsight is always 20/20. (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just tired of seeing mistakes repeated because of an inaccurate post-mortem analysis.

          Be the alien you want to see in the world.

          by PaulGaskin on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:27:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Don't get me wrong (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Do Tell, ERyd, PaulGaskin

          President Clinton made far too many mistakes which played right into the hands of the repubs. But the table had been set with the MSM before the Clinton presidency even got started.

          The point is that we need to avoid that same situation in the next several months, before the media whores in DC frame the narrative as "Even though the democrats  have won back Congress, they have lost the debate with the American people".  You can see it happening even now.

          We must learn from political history and not repeat it.

          Burns Fired in 2006! I'm a Jon Tester Democrat!

          by Ed in Montana on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:29:24 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, that was what this interview with Webb (5+ / 0-)

            was set up to do, put a newly elected Dem on the ropes and make Democrats look bad re Iraq.

            Except that they didn't realize that Webb wouldn't roll over for them.  

            That's why he is a fighting Dem in all sense of the the words.  

            Thank you, Howard Dean!

            by Do Tell on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:43:17 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  My point is that we cannot expect any slack (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nom de paix

            from those who are personally inclined toward authoritarianism.  These people are broken by the abusive authority figures in their lives and they resent our freedom.

            Yes, they hate our freedom. They seek to prove that our freedom isn't real. They are subconsciously driven to prove to themselves that we are just as pathetic and deferential to abusive authority figures as they are. Thus, they are enlisted as the foot-soldiers of their abusers.

            These people will always seek to tear down a true leader. The best strategy is to keep your balance, even as they try to drag you down to their level.

            Be the alien you want to see in the world.

            by PaulGaskin on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:08:17 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, Clinton's problem... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PaulGaskin

          ...and it's a big one, is that he wants to find some way to make everybody happy, and more importantly to like him.

          He can become sycophantic in his pursuit of such goals.

          And it's a fucking shame because he's bright and passionate and able to attract and lead lots of very talented and committed people.

          He just can't handle conflict, or the idea that people will be pissed off at him.

          Fucking unresolved child-of-an-alcoholic issues. Those little voices are pretty damned powerful.

          "...psychopaths have little difficulty infiltrating the domains of...politics, law enforcement, (and) government." Dr. Robert Hare

          by RubDMC on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:32:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Right! Distrust the MSM the way folks in Soviet (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        roses, corvo

        ... bloc countries distrusted their media, and you won't be far wrong.

      •  We can help. We can suggest memes, educate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        boadicea

        new congress critters - anyone in McCaskill's district can contact her with lots of info on Bolton - for example. We can remind the dems why they're in why we voted for them.
          We've proven some of our people power by helping them get elected. This is not the time to sit on our hands.
           I once called Hilary's office and asked what I could do to help. The person answering said: Keep contacting her with your suggestions, comments, etc. Congresscritters and senators listen to their constituents.
          So, don't stop now.

        You don't get to keep democracy unless you fight for it.

        by artebella on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:09:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  We need to focus on this (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      merrinc

      this effort to undo the democratic victories by the media-- which are so compromised by their past failures that they hunger for revenge on those who prove them wrong-- is a major task for us.

      We need to flag media on the local and national level to challenge them when they fail to do their homework; when they lazily repeat Rove's talking points, and let the Right wing caracture of the democratic party be the one the use.

      The democrats are pragmatic; honest; open to centrist ideas; and above all, recognize the fact that in a democracy, we don't make enemies our of our opponents;  we make enemies out of those who actively try to hurt the American people through lies, deceit and corruption.

      I think Paul Krugman's idea of "the Great Revulsion" is a good approach:  Americans just got sick and tired of the looting of our government, the use of foreign policy and sending troops to die for partisan goals to keep one party in power, and that people in government sworn to defend the constitution didn't believe in it and subverted it.

      Enough.  This is what we have to tell the media.  America woke up.  And now with the help of democrats, the country will stay awake.

      "Ah, what an age it is when to speak of trees is almost a crime for it is a kind of silence about injustice" (Brecht)

      by tsackton on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:09:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  We are the Moderates (0+ / 0-)

      By Definition. Look at the national results of this election. Can we be comfortable with Liberal Progressives being the Center?

      It is critical to note the difference--we are not moving--the center is. The old schoolers thought we needed to move to the center--reality is moving the center to us.

  •  Our Freshman class... (15+ / 0-)

    of Senators are going to be an exciting bunch to watch.

  •  Go Jim Webb. (14+ / 0-)

    The Corporapate media clowns are going to have a difficult time adjusting their bad attitudes to the new balance of power.

    I'm looking forward to an FCC crackdown on these Bush-loyalist propaganda networks. Their unfair, anti-american propaganda has hurt our nation bad.

    Be the alien you want to see in the world.

    by PaulGaskin on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:38:48 AM PST

  •  The rules of the discussion ... (19+ / 0-)

    have changed.  Get used to it, all of you.  Take it as an opportunitty to start doing your jobs again.

    Don't take any shit from anybody Webb - especially your 'friends'.  I can't wait to turn NPR on ...

    Oooh, another good day.  That's four in a row!

  •  Is Webb the real thing? (20+ / 0-)

    I'm getting the impression from Jim Webb that he may be the no-bullshit guy that John McCain pretends to be. He's also the type of candidate that Howard Dean  talked about when he said the Democrats could be reaching out more to the guys with pickups and Confederate flags. I will be interested to see how he does. I don't endorse in any way what the Confederate flag has come to stand for, but the economic issues in this country are real, and it is time someone spoke about them forthrightly. I'm impressed with Webb so far.

    •  I hope so - (8+ / 0-)

      We need Senators who are authentic and know what they are.  I'd go so far to say we're starving for them.  

      I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

      by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:55:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Jim is for a minimum wage hike, social justice, (4+ / 0-)

        an end to the Iraq war, while maintaining a stronge military (which he beleives should be used rarely, and only as a last resort), he favor talking to our enemies as the first and primary way to advance our causes and the well being of America and the world. He's well traveled and understands cultural differences and respects those differences.
        Senator Webb is a true and impassioned leader who beleives it is his duty to listen and stand up for the little guy, and he has a history of doing just that.
        It is my humble opinion that Senator Webb will be immune to the corrupting forces of the lobbyists, he's already refused some big donations in a cash straped campaign. And, I personal never heard him ask for a vote, instead, he would say he would be honored to have your vote and to represent you in the senate. He is a honorable man, and I for one am pround that he is representing Virginia and America.

        George Felix Allen Jr, Dumber than George W. Bush

        by ERyd on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:52:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  He's more of a.... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ed in Montana, wader

      Reagan Democrat and pretty conservative/moderate on most issues.  He's no liberal that's for sure. I think he's big depth of fresh air for the party and can give it some of the national defense stature that others like John Murtha in the House have been able to bring.

    •  I think he is real (3+ / 0-)

      in the sense that he says what he really believes.  I may disagree with him on some things, but I respect him.  He thinks for himself and does not merely mouth phrases given to him by consultants based on focus groups.

      The interview reflected real intellectual laziness on the part of the reviewer.  No thought in the questions-- just what all the corporate media are asking, probably derived ultimately from RNC faxes.

      Much of the media discussion of Iraq is fundamentally flawed.  In the new year, when they control congress, the Democrats will not be able to set policy in Iraq.  Bush will still be comander in chief.  The constitution gives the congress the right to control funding for the war and to investigate what is going on in the war.  It is extremely likely that Congress will have the political will to simply cut off funding.  This is unfortunate.  Iraq will be a mess when we leave, but it is already a mess and, my god, do we want more US troops to die for political expediency.  The most that Congress can do is to say that the special funding for Iraq will be reduced, phased our or terminated.  This may be enough to allow some messy compromized withdrawal, but the notion that Congress can dictate policy directly is simply wrong.

  •  Webb on Larry King (18+ / 0-)
    Webb was on Larry King y'day, and talked about the gilded age there too.

    He also said he was confident months ago, 33 points down, that Virginians would share his concerns and vote for him.  He did project that air of confidence.  

    And it does appear that he did run a not-nasty campaign, especially when measured by today's standards.

    We need more like him in public life, whether Repub. or Dem.; but I'm very glad he's in the Dem. column.

    •  I was impressed with Webb (8+ / 0-)

      ... especially for not being baited by the media into getting involved in the macaca episode or Allen's pro-Confederate leanings. Some candidates, from either party, would have immediate "gone negative," but Webb was more measured than that. He even handled Allen's attacks on his writings deftly.

      In fact, the more I see of Webb, the more I like -- except for his rather stilted speaking style. That may limit his national possibilities, although what he says is spot-on brilliant.

      What was interesting about the NPR interview is that Webb never really got around to answering the question about what the Democrats will do about the war. In fact, few of the newly-elected anti-war Democrats have been very specific -- although it is intrinsically a somewhat misleading question. After all, Congressional authority in conducting a war is very limited. War is still, after all, primarily the Commander in Chief's responsibility. The best Congress can do is limit the President's excesses and hold oversight hearings into both the conduct of the war and expenditures -- sorely needed duties which the Republican majority neglected.

      •  His "stilted style" - I (0+ / 0-)

        know someone on Saturday Night Live is practicing up right now.  It's is distinctive.

        I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

        by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:12:53 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  His speaking style has improved vastly during the (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        oortdust, corvo

        campaign. If you saw the debates you could see his confidence and volume improve significantly.
        As to his opinions on the war, he's repeated them often, the press refuses to report them for some strange reason (like they make sense). His position, before the war he was against the invasion, sinse we're already in this mess, his position has been that we need to talk to Iraq's neighbors, including Iran and Syria, like we talked to Afganistans neighbors, after our invasion there, and explain how their involvement should be limited and stablizing. and then to get our troops out, and all the way out. One of the first things we need to do is state that we have no permenant intents regard force presents in county, and that we won't permenantly occupy the large bases we've been building.
        But I guess Jim hasn't thought about this and doesn't have any plans, NOT.
        I'm proud Jim is my senator, and of the work I did to make that happen.
        Hopefully his voice on this and all his concerns will be heard, because this very intellegent man has thought these thing through and has many solutions for what ails our foreign policy and America in general.
        Senator Elect Jim H Webb, D-VA.

        George Felix Allen Jr, Dumber than George W. Bush

        by ERyd on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:32:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's even possible that the public might look (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ERyd

          at substance over style if given the choice.  Myself, given a choice between a gifted speaker like Obama who has nothing substantial to say that I've heard and Webb, a stilted speaker with sound, principaled ideas to help this country, I'll choose Webb. This election shows that the public is not relying on the pundits to mold their opinions, but are actually listening to the substance of the candidates.  So there is hope.  Let the comedians do their schtick.  They can find something in everyone.  That's their job.  We'll enjoy their schtick, but still listen to and respect the substance of those who have something thoughtful and meaningful to say, rather than simply being self aggrandizing.

          •  Possible, but not likely (0+ / 0-)

            The difference between running a state-wide campaign and a national one is that voters in the former get a more prolonged, close-up view of candidates. On the grander scale of a Presidential election, that is not possible -- voters are more likely to react in a purely visceral way, with policy positions only considered on a broad scale (which is why nuance doesn't work well, even if it's an essential element of actually governing). That is why the Republicans have had such an advantage, since they have been willing to offer personable candidates who seem to connect with voters with their humanity, a la Reagan and Bush II (although not Bush I, who didn't stand a chance against the combo of Clinton and Perot and only won in 1988 because Dukakis was an even colder fish than he was).

            As Democrats look ahead to 2008, it's important to keep this in mind. The candidate who can win is the one who can make voters believe that he or she understands their needs, which is a different standard than that person's qualifications or positions on issues. Democrats were fortunate in 1992 and '96 to have Clinton, who could both appeal to voters instinctively AND run the government competently. Gore was certainly qualified, and would undoubtedly IMHO been a much better president than Bush, but his apparent aloofness was too significant a handicap against the affable Bush II. Kerry suffered from the same handicap -- and both ran terrible campaigns, replete with indecision and timidity.

            As I see it, both Gore and Kerry -- irrespective of their substance and qualifications -- are not viable candidates in 2008. Edwards would have been a good choice had he remained in the Senate instead of running for VP, the additional four years of experience allowing him to build a track record and enhance his gravitas (needed for higher-minded Democratic voters) while maintaining his personal touch.

            Hilary, for all her negatives (and she's certainly not among my favorites -- especially for her Iraq stance), would be a strong choice -- in a way, bizarro Bush: run as moderate, govern as a liberal (which is what she really is at the core, political image-making aside). There's much going for Clark, but is he too "wonkish" to win? I'd like to see him in the primary fight from the start, especially in Iowa -- where candidates have to get up close and personal with voters to succeed.

            I don't think it's essential to sacrifice substance for charisma, but in order for a national candidate to be successful in today's television-driven campaigns, there's got to be a little Elvis there. If voters don't believe a candidate truly cares and can relate to about people like them, getting their vote is much more difficult.

        •  I'm not saying ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ERyd

          ... that Webb doesn't have a position on the war. Most of the Democratic anti-war candidates did, which the MSM didn't want to allow them to articulate. My main point, other than that Webb adroitly handled an interviewer who was attempting to trap him, was that Congress is Constitutionally limited in the conduct of foreign policy -- mainly the advise and consent, funding and oversight roles -- and the onus for actually accomplishing any progress for the situation in Iraq remains on the President.

  •  Screw NPR, from a long time NPR listener (24+ / 0-)

    I was an avid NPR listener for 20 years.  No more.  Since Robert Seigel showed he would fit well on Fox News when he interviewed Kerry during the Campaign in 2004, I've been listening to music and folks like Ed Schultz.  Sound like the interview with Webb was done with the same playbook.  Thank goodness Webb isn't taking their crap--he's now my Senator and I'm proud of him.

    I do tune in every Monday morning for a few minutes to hear KKKokie ramble on about how bad the democrats are. Roberts and that embarassment Mara Liason are both emblematic of the change in NPR since they got that McDonalds money.  

    There was a great diary a year or two back written by a former NPR executive who spelled out in detail how to tell NPR you are sick of their Rethug shilling.  Maybe it's time to roll that one out again if someone can find it.

  •  He was on Larry King last night... (16+ / 0-)

    http://transcripts.cnn.com/...

    WEBB: I -- everything I have ever done in my life, I have been able to -- to do 100 percent. I was very strongly concerned about the Iraq war. I was an early voice warning against going into Iraq. But I also have strong feelings about what has been happening to our country economically, with the breakdown along class lines, in a way that we probably haven't seen since the 1880s. And that's an issue that got an enormous amount of traction.

    And I ran on three issues. I -- there's been a lot of reporting, actually, here on CNN, saying that I only left the Republican Party because of the war, when, actually, I was concerned about three issues, and ran very -- very strongly on all three, the need to reorient national defense, the need for economic fairness -- we have -- we have seen a tremendous migration of wealth in this country -- and the need to stand up to the presidency. And we got traction on all three issues.

    Remember that his family and background is from southwest VA - a rural area that hasn't been doing well in recent years.

  •  Mara Liason and Juan Williams are Foxified (17+ / 0-)

    These two started going real bad during the 2004 NH Primary.  Their coverage of Kerry and Dean were so pro-Republican it caught everyone up here off-guard.  They have lost their way, or bought off.  Combination, I suppose.  I heard Juan Williams on Dianne Rehms just before the election REFUSING to say that Repubs were using dirty tricks (robo calls, voter suppression) any more than Dems.  He said to Dianne's direct question that to do so would be making a judgement.  Rehms was frustrated.  Someone did a great post on this at Kos.  I haven't given to New Hampshire Public Radio since.
       Anyone read the article on Webb and Allen in the New Yorker?  Webb sounded great.  Deep and original thinker on foreign and domestic policy.  He is going to lead.  A great member of the party.  

  •  Jim Webb tells the truth and they think it's hell (22+ / 0-)

    Jim Webb on the GOP

    "If you want to find accountability remember that the fish rots from the head down....our government should no longer be in the hands of a group of unprincipled, small minded, power hungry, character assassins" Jim Webb, Senator from VA

    “I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell.” Harry S Truman

    Wes Clark in 2008 because he's the ONLY top flight Dem that can effectively compete and win in ALL 50 states !

    by km4 on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 04:51:34 AM PST

  •  Webb for president? (9+ / 0-)

    I heard the interview and was left wondering why no one is talking about Jim Webb running for president on '08.

    He's articulate. Frames complicated issues simply. And I bet if he's attacked for his military record he'll shoot back.

  •  shocked and awed by npr carring water for Bush (2+ / 0-)
  •  Transcript of Webb on Larry King Live (13+ / 0-)
    http://transcripts.cnn.com/...

    "And I ran on three issues. I -- there's been a lot of reporting, actually, here on CNN, saying that I only left the Republican Party because of the war, when, actually, I was concerned about three issues, and ran very -- very strongly on all three, the need to reorient national defense, the need for economic fairness -- we have -- we have seen a tremendous migration of wealth in this country -- and the need to stand up to the presidency. And we got traction on all three issues. "

    "But one thing I said in this victory rally -- and I feel very strongly about it -- is, I have asked the president to stand up and -- and condemn these election-year tactics that have come out of the Karl Rove era, where we have continually tried to divide people and assassinate people's characters, rather than focusing on how we can move the country forward.

    I made a vow when I ran that I would not change what I believe in, in order to get money or a vote, and that I was not going to engage in negative campaigning in -- in this -- this era. And we -- we -- we really are hurting the country, if we don't get back to positive messages and talking about issues."

  •  Only one day as Senator-elect... (6+ / 0-)

    ...and he's already doing Virginia proud.

  •  You still listen to NPR? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rabel, Do Tell

    'nuff said.

    Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man; we shall this day light such a candle by God's grace in England as shall never be put out.

    by Bollox Ref on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:09:05 AM PST

  •  I just heard the interview (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    markymarx

    at 8:10 am.  Sounds like it was edited from your hearing - for example the reporter never said "The 1880's?"

    Could NPR have cut the embarrassing parts?

    Already diaried, please delete. Now, raise your hands and back away slowly from that keyboard. Do it now, creep! I'm the DKop!

    by benthos on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:11:37 AM PST

  •  She says she has no brain (7+ / 0-)
    At the start of that panel, Mara Liaisson was asked whether she had a brain after this campaign.  She said something like "no brain here".  How is that different from any other time?
  •  Serious to God, the man is my hero. (4+ / 0-)

    The more I saw him during the campaign the more I liked him.  He's really the first politician I've ever been excited about.  And I don't get excited about politicians.  I'm happy I live in VA just to have the privilege of voting for him.

  •  Did you hear them tearing apart (7+ / 0-)

    the first 100 hours plan?  This was a separate piece this morning.  They actually said that "economists say" that raising the minimum wage is a bad idea.  Not "some economists say", but "economists say".  They also said that Bush has already followed the 9/11 commission's plan so the Dems are just blowing hot air. I can't stand being mad already by 6:15 a.m.

  •  To turn NPR around, we have to wait until 08 when (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soonergrunt, yet another liberal

    take WH. When Newt took congress in 94, he  wanted to turn off lights on NPR and PBS. He couldn't because we had the WH and public tv/radio had strong backing from Dems in Congress.  

    After 2000, they turned it into rightwinger radio/tv by controlling funding and makeup of the boards. Lynn Cheney was the prime mover (Texas Bushies didn't care, because they didn't know what NPR or PBS were). in 2004, they fired Bob Edwards 3 months before the election (just a few months before his 25th anniversary as host) and got Steve I.

    Anyway, after we take the WH, the board (CPB) will  be turned back.

    Until then, let us highlight their shenanigans like this diary, keep on rec list, so that they will be shamed, because NPR people and their media colleagues read dkos - and Media Matters.

  •  Just listened to the interview (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Positronicus, nom de paix

    I couldn't believe how short the interview was! I am so sick of listening to the pundits - I much prefer to listen to the senator-elect. He was only asked a couple of questions. They really needed to budget their time better.

  •  Yes they must have as I'm listening to it now (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    soonergrunt

    The interviewer is one of their anchors, not M. Liasson, although I can't remember her name.  ML appeared on their 'panel'.   But I didn't hear the 'rudeness' or any venom from the anchor.  NPR is not going to be the anti-Fox, ever, even if they get different leadership.  It won't be Air America.  SO if that's what you want to hear you have to go to those outlets.  

    •  I didn't say it was Ms. Liasson - (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cotterperson

      I said reporter or interviewer.  And yes, I did hear that faint scorn.  Perhaps one of the reasons why police don't like to rely on eyewitness reports.  We hear/see differently.  But thank goodness we have audio transcripts available now so we can make our own judgments.    

      I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

      by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:25:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Until a few years ago, I listened to NPR 24/7 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SharaiP

      Maybe you do not recognize it - but in recent years they have taken a DISTINCT turn to the right - they may not pump out outright propaganda like FOX, but they now make a point of not covering or softpeddling stories that would reflect badly on Bush.

      It may be a subtle thing to some, but to long-time listeners like me it has been heartbreaking.

  •  Similar NPR interview with Heath Shuler (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roonie, boadicea, xanthe, neroden, BB10

    on ATC yesterday.  Melissa Block (who was not rude or combative) began by asking Shuler about being a Blue Dog Democrat, his positions on abortion and gay marriage, and possible conflicts with party leaders, and he turned the discussion to the environment, the economy, health care, fiscal responsibility, and poverty.  

    Recommended listening--Shuler gives a great primer on what it is that unites us as Democrats!

  •  Webb is better than good (22+ / 0-)

    He has gravitas.  This is something Democratic leaders have lacked since Clinton came to office.  Clinton played the good-ol'-boy fiddle to perfection, but it had one major cost: he was liked but not respected.  The Washington press corps tore him apart.  Webb doesn't ask for respect, he simply walks in a room and claims it.  I saw Nancy Pelosi do the same thing with Margaret Warner the other night.  Reid is now doing it.  It works, and the Press are going to have to readjust.  Like the Republicans, they will be in denial and then angry, but they'll come around.

    I learned in my 30 some-odd years of teaching that the best way to master a class of late adolescents is to establish authority from the get-go.  None of the first-name business. It works because students like the security it gives them.  Same for the American public.  The reason why they fell for the authoritarian horse-shit shoveled out by the reactionary Right was because they want that authority over them.  It's mostly psychological, and using it is part and parcel of exerecising leadership.

    Webb is better than good.  He is going to be a Democratic superstar.

    •  Because Bush, you know, has gravitas coming (0+ / 0-)

      out of his ass. The media tears aoart progressives because they want to curb and hold responsible the corporate elite. How the progressives present their message matters, but the response will be the same.

      17. Ne5

      In chess you may hit a man when he's down -- Irving Chernev, on Przepiorka v. Prokes, Budapest, 1929

      by Spud1 on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:03:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Another thing, he writes. (0+ / 0-)

      Cicero (the Roman writer, not the cartoon pig) supposedly said "A man cannot truly  think unless he writes."  Or something to that effect.

      I give this incredble credence, though it is inconsistant in presidents (great presidents Washington & FDR not noted as a writers, Lincoln, TR were; Adams, Jefferson, Madison wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, among other things, and were mediocre Presidents, etc.).  

      But I would like to think that it is true.

      "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." General Nathanael Greene, Continental Army, April, 1781.

      by faithnomore on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:42:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  no exit strategy (11+ / 0-)
    I loved it whe Webb said, we went into Iraq without an exit strategy becasue we didn't plan on leaving. Zing
  •  Webb would say Baker signs on his plan (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boadicea, xanthe, corvo

    As he pointed out, his was the first op-ed, before the war, outlining much of what James Baker says now.

    (However, please forgive me for refusing to reflexively honoring any of these old criminals from the Reagan administration, it's just that these are like the nice old predictable Mafia as opposed to the Bush Jr Republicans' nihilist gangs.)

  •  Writing NPR was on my list (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boadicea, corvo

    today anyway. I was at work, and driving when he did the presser yesterday. I tried the NPR station to listen. Nothing. Pissed me off. New Dem Virginia Senator gives a presser and they don't report? Feh.
    All their headline links are Repub. Except for one about women in power. Double Feh.

    I'm trying to load their contact page, but it the little balls just keep spinning. I giggly hope that kossacks are smoking their server.

  •  It IS the 1880s coming again (10+ / 0-)

    I'm so glad Webb is talking about this.  Makes me like him even more.  Any twit who doesn't see it is stupid.

    We NEED more elected officials talking about the shrinking of the middle class and the growing disparity between the wealthy and the impoverished.

  •  Webb Rawked (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xanthe, corvo, BB10, Positronicus, nom de paix

    I heard the interview too and loved it when she said "Well we're out of time."  ROFL.  He totally took charge and didn't mess around with the question about the Democrats' plan for Iraq.

    It was sweet.  

    Liberal: "I still think it's a respectable word. Its root is "liber," the Latin word for "free," and isn't that what we are all about?"--Mary McGrory

    by mini mum on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:27:57 AM PST

  •  Who was the interviewer? And what show? (0+ / 0-)

    I've never heard this kind of behavior on shows that I listen to, but I may have missed some new "balance" oriented show.

    NPR has many offerings.

  •  Total MISREAD of the interview (6+ / 0-)

    Your diary has totally misread and maligned the interviewer.

    1. She asked questions.  That's her job.  She needs to be a reasonable interviewer, and she was.
    1. She was polite.  She asked for clarification.
    1. He responded politely.

    You don't like NPR, and that's OK.  It is NOT OK to make a biased, incorrect and totally off-center diary like this one.

    Try, just once, to listen without prejudice.  

    •  sorry center - (5+ / 0-)

      I did not get that at all -  Am I slanted?  well, aren't we all to some extent.  I used to like NPR for years - but no longer.  They are not even neutral.  

      I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

      by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:38:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This interview was (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GopherHeel, faithnomore, s choir, BB10, xgz

        Your biased interpretation was a total misrepresentation of the interview.  She was NOT miffed.  She said NOTHING about the 1880s.

        You should listen carefully.  Your diary is very biased.

        •  I did listen carefully - (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cotterperson, Positronicus

          As I said "It is my transcript"  knowing full well others would listen.  This is the way I heard the interview.  

          I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

          by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:46:24 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your transcript (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GopherHeel, faithnomore, s choir

            has all sorts of little parenthetical comments.

            That's not a transcript.  That's an editorial.

            Look, I don't care about your hatred for NPR, irrational and evidence-less that it is.  I do think that you should be a little less biased, and allow other impressionable persons to make up their own minds.

            i too have my issues with NPR.  Dianne Rehm still has many neocon hacks as commentators on the News Hour, and I have for years protested this.  But do not make a broad, overall bias write attitudes on everything.

            •  So no one makes editorial comments here? (3+ / 0-)

              I don't hate NPR - I don't hate NPR.  I dislike that they are still considered a bastion of fairness.  They are not - to my mind.  you disagree with me - fine.  As I said - I knew the audio was available and would be commented on -

               

              I have no patience with people who grow old at 60 just because they are entitled to a bus pass. Mary Wesley, British novelist

              by xanthe on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:56:10 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  I haven't heard/read the transcript... (0+ / 0-)

      but I initial thoughts were the same. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I find it funny how quick we are to blame the media when they finally start asking tough questions....to OUR side. Somehow, I think this "rudeness" would have been shrugged off if, say, these questions were to someone like McCain.

    •  She was lazy (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hoolia, nom de paix

      She just asked the same questions that the corporate media are asking.  The questions were not perceptive and they probably originated at some point with the RNC.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, Congress can not set policy in Iraq.  They can hold hearings and they can ultimately control spending, but if every Democrat decided that they wanted the troops back immediately, all that they could do would be to withold additional special appropriations for Iraq.  Bush, the antichrist, is commander in chief under the constitution and sets policy.  He has not been receptive to suggestions from Democrats or other rational humans.  It would be good if a reasonable fraction of these media airheads actually understood the constitution.

  •  xanthe. thank you. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    xanthe, Positronicus

    Was getting gas during the Webb segment and got back in the car at the very end - so sorry to have missed this and so thank you for the heads-up will listen to it later via their website.

    Good to 'see' you - got some good news (e-mail later).

    What a wonderful week this has been - I haven't felt this optimistic since, oh... well, my memory fails me (again) but it's been a decade or more.

    "In order to be respected, authority has got to be respectable." Tom Robbins

    by va dare on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:38:20 AM PST

  •  incurious minds think alike (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    anotherdemocrat

    That's kind of funny- and not that the press is monolithic by any means (and I can absolutely find room in my definition of "press" for the bloggies!) but it, expecially the mass media end, has frequently exhibited the same incurious mind that has left the mark of the beast on the Bush clan!! And characterizes the right as a whole. But overall NPR tends to be at least more interesting than most.

    I look very much forward to our not to soundbitable Dems elevating the debate about the issues, Iraq among them. James Webb is going to be one hell of an interesting addition to the mix, heh!! :)

  •  NPR has become a bad 'college fm' show (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mysticdog, blueseas, nom de paix

    I tune in (via XM) from time to time - aside from lurching the last remaining political talk to the 'fairly imbalanced' ™, it spends way too much time being 'entertaining' with total fluff

    To me it's fluff - sorry if your favorite nephew's music is on the air there :)

    Save $ on image hosting account at smugmug - use my mYYrlt9brzUDE token to save $5

    by Blue in VA on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:47:32 AM PST

  •  my wife just said the same thing (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BB10, Positronicus

    my wife just came in the house (listening to npr in car) and said, "webb was fantastic".  then i logged on here and it was the top diary.   I didn't hear it, but apparently it had serious impact.

  •  Don't Just Complain Here - Tell NPR ! (4+ / 0-)

    Go to
    http://www.npr.org/...
    and tell NPR what you think of their interview.

    •  complain about what?! (0+ / 0-)

      That their reporter was asking questions and Webb gave some long-winded answers that weren't as smooth as they could have been in steering the conversation where he wanted it to go?

      The interview was fine. Webb was fine. Webb will be even better when he learns to keep his answers a little shorter and keeps his audiences in mind. This is not a particularly media-saavy candidate, and he's going to get a lot of spotlight in the next few weeks. He and his staff need to work fast on making him a more media-saavy Senator-elect.

  •  CORRECT read of the interview (16+ / 0-)

    I just heard the same interview at about 8:20 EST, and immediately logged on to write a diary, only to find this the top rec'd diary of the morning. Hooray!

    The audio transcripts of the interview and the NPR "analysis" will online here at about 10 AM. My notes:

    "Economic Inequality": Jim Webb on NPR

    Jim Webb appeared this morning on NPR's Morning Edition. The interviewer asked Jim a question about the Democrats' plans for Iraq, and Jim answered plainly and clearly (I'm paraphrasing):

    I know everyone wants to say this was single issue election about Iraq. But the most important issue is economic inequality ...

    YES! That's what I want to hear! Of course we need to clean up the corruption. Of course we need to get out of Iraq. But since my children won't inherit 10 million dollars, my children's future depends on two things

    1. Getting a job. A job that pays well.
    1. Staying out of debt. So balance the budget!

    Jim gets it.

    The NPR talking heads don't. In the "analysis" that follows the NPR commentators completely ignore what Webb said. Economic inequality is not mentioned once. Struggling to come up with a cutesy reason why Webb was elected, one offers (I'm paraphrasing):

    Of course Jim Webb was elected because of WMD's. The W obviously was Bush. And the M was the Macaca word, and, um ... If George Allen hadn't self-destructed, there's no way Webb could have won.

    He can't think of anything to go with "D", so he just drops it.

    Memo to talking heads. Over a million people in Virginia voted FOR Jim Webb, and Jim Webb WON. Nobody knows better than he does why he won, certainly not you. If Jim Webb says Economic Inequality, then you'd better believe it, even if it doesn't mesh with your corporatist bias.

    Jim Webb rules!

    •  Without 'macaca' Webb would have lost (0+ / 0-)

      Allen self-destructed.  

      Webb had a message, I agree.  

      But do not confuse his message with the facts.  The facts are

      1. in August, Allen was ahead by 15 pts
      1. he lost in November by a narrow, narrow margin
      1. Allen committed more gaffes, stupidities and incoherences than any candidate I have ever seen.

      Allen beat himself, and Webb won.  Makes me happy, but Webb did little but stay out of the way.

      •  This sounds like a parroting of the Repub (6+ / 0-)

        and MSM talking points.  The Dems didn't win; the Repubs lost.  Bullshit.  Sure, Allen did plenty to shove his foot in his mouth often enough.  But he's been doing that for decades and has still been in the Senate for how many years???  If Webb hadn't been a great alternative, Allen's stupidity would have had the same result it did all the previous election cycles.  You might want to sell Webb short for whatever reason, but it's a huge mistake.  No one wins only or even primarily because of the other guy's gaffe.  They win because of what they do.

      •  I agree, with a caveat (0+ / 0-)

        Allen finally beat himself with his attacks on Webbs books.  If he hadn't done that, he would have won.  He lost by, as of this morning with 100% of the votes in, 8941 votes, and I feel personally that there were at least 10000 people, probably more, totally revolted in the last days over the Allen 'shock and awe' over the sexual references in Jims books.  Without that last bit of despiration from Allen, he's be in his second term.  Macaca screwed the hinges on his coffin, but the attacks on Webbs books closed the lid.

        And, BTW, I just listened to the NPR interview, and I agree with you, I didn't think it was attacking or insulting to Webb.

        8941 more Virginians approve of this message

        by Pain on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:32:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Allen lost, Webb won (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          menodoc, Positronicus

          and no one will know the issue which tipped each voter over.

          The attacks on the books were insane, I agree.  These books are on the reading list of the military academies!!  It was one of those really stupid ideas promoted by some christian nazi nutcase on Allen's staff.

          Allen is a pustule.  It is so good to see him out.

          I wish Mr. Webb well.  He will be a credit to his Party.

  •  Did he answer the question on Iraq? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    markymarx

    Just wondering.

    •  Yes, he did. (0+ / 0-)

      He mentioned the Baker commission, and then advocated an approach based on regional diplomacy. I think the idea is the get the other regional powers to the table & get everyone to agree what to do about Iraq. To me this makes sense, since without an agreement the rest of them will just shred the carcass ...

      I could be misrepresenting things here, please consult the audio transcripts when they are released.

  •  yippee (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Positronicus

    A Dem with balls--and spine.  Webb/Clark or Clark/Webb in 2008.

  •  i heard his acceptance speech (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Inland, Positronicus

    the man has what it takes to smack down all these fools

    Keep Religion in Church

    by titotitotito on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 05:56:53 AM PST

  •  NPR is the Republican Party's b*tch (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Dave925, blueseas

    and it's high time to make it ours, or zero out its funding.

  •  My impression of Webb interview... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    baked potato

    (Disclaimer: I'm only listening to NPR because my car with XM is in the shop)

    The lead-in to the interview implied that this would be a lengthy conversation.  When Webb countered the "media prevailing wisdom" regarding why he was running and then cut the legs out from under "what is the Democratic plan for Iraq bs" I was surprised to then hear that they were "out of time".  The interview then continued with Webb making remarks.  Just another reminder why I dropped NPR a long time ago. Oh, another thing, their attempts at humor are lame at best and a recent satirical send-up of a typical political commercial literally made light of Iraq casualties.  They have lost their way.

    "We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis D. Brandeis

    by VA6thDem on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:08:28 AM PST

    •  They were "out of time" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      baked potato

      less than a minute into the interview.

      •  I just went and listened and it was over 3 (0+ / 0-)

        minutes into the interview before she said that. Then they gave him about a minute more in which he said some powerful and substantive stuff about income inequality.  The whole clip is 4:54 long and he first talks within the first minute. Since the usual NPR segment is about 5 minutes so this was par for the course.

        My take is that they actually were OK to him, since he got to talk for quite a while without much interruption and since he was very articulate. I do agree that the, "Do the Ds have a plan," question seems like a repeat of someone's anti-D talking points.  But Webb handled that very well too.

  •  The media of all stripes (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    snazzzybird, nom de paix

    has traditionally loved to pick on Democrats. I seem to recall Clinton bashing was a major American journalistic pasttime but for some reason they bow down to Republican insanity.
    Maybe it can be equated to someone picking on the nerdy smart kid because they know he want talk back, as opposed to not picking on the crazy bad-ass kid, because he might do something insane. The media is about to learn that this old tactic will not work any more, now that the new breed of fighting Democrat has hit the scene.

  •  I gotta agree (6+ / 0-)

    Rene Montaigne was really pushing the conversation so she could spin it her way.  Then there was the ridicule fest that followed with Steve Inskeep, Mara Liasson and some jackass to be named later.  Then they rounded out the hour mocking the 100 hour agenda.  
    Listen NPR lackeys of Rove.  There are new guys in town and they have control of your budget.  If you can't be nice, you may be forced to be fair.
    BTW, support your LOCAL public radio station.  (Mine is WNYC)  They are not responsible for this tripe.  

    -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

    by goldberry on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:11:49 AM PST

    •  Their commentary (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blueseas, nom de paix

      is what led me to stop listening and contributing a few years ago. It's completely asinine.

      I know they're bending over backwards to appear unbiased, but why even have commentary unless it brings some insight or keenness or wit?

      •  Please contribute to your local station (5+ / 0-)

        I know sometimes it is hard to listen to this stuff.  But this is exactly what the GOP wants.  They WANT you to be disgusted so they can finish the job they started 12 years ago and get rid of public broadcasting.  
        I am from Pittsburgh where the first public TV station started.  That's where Fred Rogers got his start, which lead to Sesame Street and ZOOM and The Electric Company.  I volunteered for the begathons.  I've been a loyal listener of NPR for over 20 years.  I've introduced my 10 year old to a Prairie Home Comapanion.  I am not going to give up on all of that now just because the idiots in charge hijacked quality broadcasting so they could gut the whole thing later.  
        Now that we have control of congress, we need to stress how important it is that NPR return to its mission of quality, non-partisan journalism.  The country will be better for it.

        -3.63, -4.46 "Choose something like a star to stay your mind on- and be staid"

        by goldberry on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:00:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueseas

          but I will not.

          The dream of public radio has been so compromised in the past ten years that contributing just encourages the pattern.

          Unfortunately, money drives media, not jouirnalistic integrity.

          This stuff makes golf look like porn.

          by Toes on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:57:30 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Oh please. (0+ / 0-)

          This is the same Pledge Drive screed they say every six months.

          NPR will respond -- maybe -- when they continue to lose listenership in droves.

          They like to think they're outside the marketplace, but that's absurd. It's in fact because of the marketplace that they've become so right-leaning of late.

          I don't want to get rid of NPR, but I am not going to support them because "it's the right thing to do" or whatever. They can beg all they want. They've abused my trust and they need to earn it back before I bother to ever support them again.

          I need a reason to bother to listen. And Susan Stanberg's recipes ain't it.

        •  Public yes; NPR no (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          roses, blueseas

          Support community radio stations that play "Democracy Now". They need your help.

          National Petroleum Radio has more funding than it needs.

  •  Our guy Jim is a very, very good guy but... (0+ / 0-)

    ...he'd better be careful with the class rhetoric and also with the quotations from Marx and Engels.  (Yes, he has quoted them in his speeches.)  I like where he's going-I love where he's going- but he's got to refrain from frightening the horses.

    It's a lot better to close the income gap and stop the bleeding of the middle class than it is to talk about it.

    He seems to be inordinately fond of beetles.jbs haldane on being asked what his study of biology had taught him about the Creator.

    by bodiddley on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:18:28 AM PST

  •  They're fuming (0+ / 0-)

    She was a rude ass because it hurts the partisan media that Dems are running the show now and that they are a  forseeable threat to telco monopolization and usurpation.
    Does it hurt?
    Say, yes.
    Yes,poppa, it does hurt.

  •  NPR reporters analysis of 1st hundred days (6+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roses, javelina, merrinc, BB10, jhop7, nom de paix

    was like listening to FOX.

    On raising the minimum wage:

    Some economists argue that increases in the minimum wage raise labor costs and push businesses to actually cut low-wage jobs.

    And while they mention that the minimum wage hasn't changed since 1997, nothing was said about how it's buying power is what it was in the 1950's. Message: raising the minimum wage will cost the poor their jobs.

    On enacting the 9/11 commission recommendations:

    it’s not exactly clear what that means, since some of the commission’s 41 recommendations are vague.

    and then they emphasize that many of them have already been enacted, implying the GOP enacted all the specific recommendations, and the Democrats are pushing too hard on some vague recommendations.

    And so. This is what passes for fair journalism on NPR, merely repeating the same GOP/White House talking points we hear on FOX.

    Okay, NPR is now going back off in my house. Where can I listen to Bob Edwards online?

  •  I detect freeper bait and switch (0+ / 0-)

    When I first started reading this page, I read a comment that really pissed me off. I'm pretty sure now it was a freeper baiting, and switching, as they are prone to do. It ended with something about fruit.

    What strange fruit. I am amazed by the number of racist comments in this thread. I can only assume we are being freeped by followers of Rush or some such.

    To the freepers: I hope you all feel safe in your white house, cause the painters are here! And guess what? They are immigrants, just like all of us. The only non-imigrants in this country rode the trail of tears to get to this thread.

    I for one would love to see a black man and a white woman rule this land. Go Hillary and Barrak! Speak the truth and only those that are willing to listen may drink from the grail!

    I'm sorry, but the racism needs to end here and now.

    "lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed"

    by yuriwho on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:29:49 AM PST

  •  This is NPR still shilling for the GOP.... (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bee tzu, Lord Humongous

    ..and I hope any of you who agrees (and I know I'm in the minority) will send email to not just the NPR ombudsman, but to your local NPR station and tell them (if you had contributed in the past) that your support of NPR is about to come to an end, given their obvious bias in favor of Republican, right wing politics.

    Unless NPR 'gets it' from the audience, they will keep doing what they are doing.

    Since NPR affiliates pay huge sums of money to NPR, its at the local level that you can influence the Washington based network--  the major NPR stations can have a d r a m a t i c effect on what the network does since they provide most of the money.

    Sorry if I offended NPR fans with this post.  I know NPR is still an attractive resource.

    Looking foward!

    •  NPR needs to be purged from the top down (0+ / 0-)

      As I said in another post, up till a few years ago I listened to NPR EVERY DAY for about 20 years - so I think I know whereof I speak.

      I sadly think the credibility of even some long-term NPR journalists has been compromised by their complete cave-in to the Bush adminsitration.

      I think 90% of the current writers and reporters need to go (Debbie Elliot and Maura Liasson first) Maybe they can hire a bunch of kids out of Journalism school and get Bob Simon back.

  •  I haven't heard the interview yet but............ (0+ / 0-)

    ...........I am so with xanthe about how rightly tilted NPR is.  And I've heard enough Mara LIE-ASS-son to have formed an opinion of her similar to those of most people here.  I can't stand her and I've always gotten the impression that she's a righty shill underneath that superficial coating of objectivity.  It's why I haven't listened to NPR as much as I used to, since this Administration was selected.

  •  If Obama said that... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    javelina

    I hope he realizes he's the FIRST person people expect to start "proving himself" on most people's list.  A lot of us have been giving him a pass b/c he's powerless (especially those of us who know his record in Illinois).  But if he still acts like a Republican in a Democratic Senate, I won't be defending him.

    Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

    by ChicagoDem on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:35:11 AM PST

  •  Obama Barak (0+ / 0-)

    'Note to NPR. Get Sen. Obama on tomorrow - he'll go along with you.  I heard just before this segment he's been saying the Dems better prove themselves now.'

    If there is any Democrat who needs to prove himself, I'd say it's BARAK OBAMA. He seems to see himself as the Democrats' chief moral officer. I see him as a vain man who can't take his rightful place at the back of the room and wait his turn. He always needs to play the good, cute boy who despite himself has all eyes on him and can't help but succeed.

  •  National Propaganda for Republicans NPR (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    roses, sangemon, bee tzu, blueseas, nom de paix

    I HATE NPR.  For those of you who still think
    NPR is good, GET OVER IT!

    It has become infiltrated with Republican shills
    for this adminsitration.

    Ken Tomlinson and his spawn destroyed what NPR was.
    It is now just a propaganda arm of the Republican
    Party.  I haven't donated in years... and whenever
    my local NPR station has a fund-raising drive, I
    always call in and tell them I'm not donating because of the incessant shilling for the Bush administration.

    Here are a few examples:

    The interviews that Juan Williams did with Rumsfeld and Cheney et al over the last couple of years.
    These were feel-good interviews meant to endear these warmongers to NPR listeners.  Juan Williams is a pawn like Maggie Gallagher and Armstrong Williams (how much they paying you, Juan?).

    The weekend before this election there was a big story by some NPR guy (don't recall the name, but he's OBVIOUSLY one of the new hires intended to shill for Bush and Rove) . . . and his entire
    story was about the huge groundswell that Republican candidates were making in the two to three days before the election.  What a piece crap that was.... it was PURE Republican propaganda  --and effort to create momentum for the GOP.  No polls showed such a "groundswell".  It was REALLY pathetic!

    Then there's Mara Liasson --what a harpy she is!

    Here's the deal --Rove had a decision to make regarding NPR.  He could either destroy it completely and shut it down OR he could co-opt it.
    Tomlinson and the other shill whose name I can't remember were the co-opters.  And they did one heckuva job in destroying NPR.

    Now NPR has become a bland FOX-NEWS like broadcast.
    According to media watchdog groups, NPR's coverage in the lead-up to the Iraq was AS PRO-WAR AS FOX NEWS.... (for those of you who think that NPR still has any value whatsoever, let that sink into your collective heads!).  The coverage was little more than cheerleading the war.  Pathetic.

    Those who still like NPR aren't listening with a critical ear.  NPR programming has become mostly fluff --pieces about musicians or athletes. And artistic pieces about the sounds of whales or
    Dave Berry style wry-humor-pieces.  Essentially,
    NPR has become the features page of the newspaper.
    And the few political pieces they do are slanted heavily in support of the administration.

    So PLEASE! DO NOT SUPPORT NPR --NATIONAL PROPAGANDA FOR REPUBLICANS.  Let it die!

    Dan in Baltimore

  •  xanthe- I heard that too, and agree (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Eddie Haskell, Riff

    with your take. As for that Mara L., there's no mistaking which side she's on.

    I want to provide this link to a diary from way back by Eddie Haskell to discourage people from a blanket trashing of NPR.  Eddie recently said his diary still holds up in its advice.  He used to work for NPR.  He explains how NPR news, like Morning Edition, is separate from the other programming.  He further explains that withholding our donations to local NPR affiliates does not have an effect on the news division.  He lays out the most effective ways to register your discontent with the news division.

    NPR lovers and haters alike should read Eddie's diary.

    If we don't have fairness and social justice as part of our platform, there is no real reason to be a Democrat. inclusiveheart

    by station wagon on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:40:24 AM PST

  •  so, after hearing it... (6+ / 0-)

    I think Webb did very well, he covered a lot of ground and showed that he is clearly well rounded on many issues he cares and knows about beyond the Irag war one-liner the interviewer started the interview with.  He controlled the interview and used the time on air as his medium.

    However, I have to say that he didn't EXACTLY answer the interviewer's question, and in some ways ran out the clock on his own.  There was a little too much 'I was the first to' and 'I wrote this' and 'I said two years ago' going on for my taste.  I don't think the interviewer maliciously tried to set him up in some 'you ran on Iraq but don't have a plan'.  I think the interviewer showed interest in the other issues Webb brought up.  The interviewer was polite but surprised to be addressing issues outside of her initial question.

    I take it back; he did ultimately start to address a plan for a clear statement of intent from the administration and inclusion of other countries in the region in the process, so he did respond preliminarily to the question.

    I wish the interview had been longer; Webb's statements were a great opening set-up to really tie in the Ira War with real issues at home, in terms of the economy and civil liberties.  But I think the goal of the interview was to get a clear statement on Webb's approach to the Iraq problem, and Webb expanded the question by clarifying his broader concerns.  And ultimately then I think they genuinely ran out of time.

    In the balance, the interview was fantastic BECAUSE Webb did not answer the question directly but opened up the debate, showed himself as a coming Senator with broad issues to address, and did not allow himself to be pigeonholed.  But he did take the interview off the tracks and reading anything malicious in the interviewers intent is a real stretch.

    I can't wait to hear more from Webb.

    •  I agree with you (0+ / 0-)

      in listening to the interview again on line, I now think my original response to it (that the interviewer Rene Montagne was rude) had to do with the expansiveness of his answer as compared to her approach, which sounded more like she was looking for sound bytes.   There was touch of impatience in her voice that contrasted with the calm and matter-of-fact tone of his answer.  It made me think that she didn't respect the serious nature of what he was saying.

    •  Thank you: common sense! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      faithnomore, paxpdx, Tailspinterry

      I heard the interview twice, in fact. The idea that the interviewer for NPR is some kind of right-wing attack dog is ridiculous. She was asking very reasonable questions, and Webb was responding as he would have on the campaign trail, but it came across like he was filibustering. Frankly, he reminded me of Joe Biden in his long-windedness and biographically informed responses. It seemed to me a classic example of a candidate who hadn't yet made the segue to Senator-elect in his media strategy. In a 3-minute interview, you've got to get your message across, but you've also got to keep it brief so you don't end up sounding like a gasbag. Claire McCaskell has done a much better job on this front in the national appearances I've seen and heard than Webb so far.

      Before you jump all over me, I supported Webb vigorously, gave money, promoted him on my blog. I want the guy to succeed and am thrilled he got elected. He just needs some polish on his media skills.

      •  campaign trail... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Tailspinterry

        It really did sound like he was still campaigning or debating, with all the bio info...I didn't put it in those terms because I thought it might be too unpopular a thing to say, so you are braver than I.  But it seems reasonable that he has not yet tuned himself to a post-campaign reality.

        As WallStreetDavid said below and you also add, he needs to fine tune for the medium of radio.

        I haven't heard Claire McCaskill yet but I'm glad to hear positive feedback; there has been a lot of ruckus around here about some things she said about Bolton and I wonder if it there is a basis for it or if it just another example of hearing the wrong emphasis or tone in an interview and jumping to conclusions...

    •  Webb= (0+ / 0-)

      blossomig presidential potential!

      -5.0,-5.54 "The form of our movement...is a tidal wave, stretching both left and right as far as the eye can see..." Georgia10

      by SherriG on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 10:48:48 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  But a lot of secret Dem support will surface (0+ / 0-)

    Keep in mind that, however they did it, the Republicans really bullied/bribed/blackmailed people into thinking that even taking Democrats seriously was a bad thing. Now, if nothing else, Democrats and progressives are going to have a serious place in the spotlight.

  •  I'm so sick of hearing about Obama (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Farugia, megisi

    I could scream.

    A member of the demonizing, hating, virulent, character- assassinating left of the Democratic Party...or am I?

    by marjo on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:45:45 AM PST

    •  I love Obama, Obama is great, run Obama run! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marjo, lirtydies

      I had the pleasure of seeing Obama speak twice in Rhode Island over the past few weeks, as he crusaded across the country drawing huge crowds on behalf of Democratic candidates like Sheldon Whitehouse.

      Obama has "it".  He speaks eloquently, with humor, with passion.  His voting record is perfect.  And if he talks about religion and appeals to moderates -- like a certain charismatic Democratic leader from Arkansas -- who are we to fault him for that?

      Use your green to turn New England blue! Donate here.

      by jab on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:23:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't DISLIKE him (0+ / 0-)

        but I think he's a young black Clinton.  Great potential.  I just think rushing him to the forefront of the MSM is gonna burst that bubble before its time.

        A member of the demonizing, hating, virulent, character- assassinating left of the Democratic Party...or am I?

        by marjo on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 09:07:49 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  It is unusual for a diarist (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marjo

      to hijack his own diary but that's was happened here with the unnecessary reference to Obama.

      (-2.75,-4.77) America let Bush play with its Army and he broke it.

      by Sam I Am on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:42:15 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

  •  write npr constantly about lie-a son (4+ / 0-)

    i write emails to them weekly with detailed calling out of her BS and Cooooookie Roberts BS and always end with something along the lines of it time to stop talking about whats good for the republicans and start talking about whats good for Americans

  •  was there commentary AFTER the interview? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ChuckInReno

    The NPR audio ends pretty much with the phone call ending.  I didn't hear anything in it that warrants the outrage presented in the diary, IMO. (I mean, who wouldn't react with surprise to suddenly, in 2006, hear someone say that we are facing problems we haven't faced since 1880?  Not having heard such a comparison before, wouldn't you do the double-take?)

    But, was there some follow up that minimized or mocked Webb's statements?  Maybe that would justify the outrage, but I am not privy to that info.  Otherwise, the outrage is misplaced.

    Except for maybe the Obama bits...but I haven't seen the direct quotes yet.  Although it doesn't seem like it would be way off mark the kinds of things he has said before...

  •  NPR has betrayed its long term audience (6+ / 0-)

    I've heard interviews with its top leadership where they cheerfully acknowledge this fact as a conscious strategy to grow their listening base.  They have made a conscious effort to move away from the old progressive point of view to this mushy centrist "even handed" he said she said crap that prevents modern journalism from calling a spade a spade.  Ironically, this move is happening when the endowment from Krock's widow should have given them a degree of financial independence to finally forget about kowtowing to the right to protect their funding.  I find it disgraceful.  Some might like it.  But the fact is that the change is real and is part of a strategy that is openly admitted to by the NPR brass.

  •  Good Interview, Spinning Panel (4+ / 0-)
    The interview itself was really pretty fair.  I don't think that she expected to get such strong answers from her subject and probably had some preconceived ideas about what he was going to say.  Even so, she allowed him to speak his mind for long stretches and show just how articulate he is.  She tried to interject once or twice to move to the other topics that he defined as his three issues, but that's more a function of the time limitations of radio.  She just barely made it under the 5 minute clock, but clearly wanted to touch on his other issues.  She did sound incredulous at the 1880 assertion, but income inequality is a pet issue for me, and I haven't heard anyone hark quite that far back.  Webb made his case nicely, though.

    The panel, on the other hand, was the usual spin farce.  At least Mara admitted up front that she had "very little" brain left after the election.  SHE was really the person pushing the notion that the Democrats should have some sort of unified plan.  SHE was the one trying to say that there is something wrong with a party that can't speak with one voice on every issue.  But that's the Republican approach; come up with talking points and a plan formulated in some back room, and then force every member to adhere to "the message". Yes, that can be effective, and I hope that the Democrats can adopt that strategy occasionally to apply to particularly important issues.  But the literal meaning of being liberal, which I hope that we can reestablish as a positive quality in the minds of the general populace, is to think freely about every issue.  One should bring every personal experience and everything one knows to be true to bear on every issue.  It's subtle, it often doesn't produce the sound bites that today's media craves, and it can be exposed to being shouted down by those with a more simplistic message.  But in the long run, it produces the best, and most democratic, results.  Mara says that Jim Webb "isn't spouting the Party lines, if there even is any" as if that's something that he and Democrats should be ashamed of.  Au Contraire!

  •  I'll listen to em on Ed Shultz and Tom Hartmann (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bee tzu

    I think Air America is going to be even more important after this election, than it was giving voice to Democratic themese leading up to the election.

    Thanks to everyone who is part of the Air AMerica network. I think this election was an endorsement of progressive radio.

    ANd this diary nails what NPR pundits have done to hurt us- they have embraced GOP themes and frames and some of them do it intentionally.

  •  I heard it this morning... it was AWSOME (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bee tzu

    Thank you Senator elect Webb!!

  •  Webb for president in '08? (0+ / 0-)

    Webb is a really attractive candidate for '08. He is articulate, has an incredible resume, is experienced in government, and have proven to be able to fight well in a campaign. While I would prefer to give him a full term as a senator before he ran, he is still attractive. As attractive as Wesley Clark, but perhaps more articulate, with a more diverse resume.

  •  Webb is absolutely terrific! (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    MrJersey, Tailspinterry

    Like folks have said, he controlled the interview and wouldn't buy into her spin.  I agree that NPR is getting way reactionary and stoopid, but I didn't get that this was an attack interview.  The reporter was just a typical media goober and the Senator had no problem taking charge and showing her what for.  

    I thought he came off as the intelligent, articulate, thoughtful, forceful person that he clearly is.  What a win to have him on our side!!

    No telling what new harm Bush might do if he ever gets back up off the mat. You have to keep your knee on his windpipe until the danger is past. -G. Trudeau

    by LarisaW on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 06:53:58 AM PST

  •  NPR = National Petroleum Radio (0+ / 0-)

    I have always felt that NPR mascaraded as a voice for the more liberal, while misleading the Democrats into enacting weak and ineffective strategies.

    In other words, NPR has alot of talking heads.

    NPR should have been a voice for the majority of the public, and should have been out there with the truth of what is going on, but has not been much more than another media organ for the Bush administration.

  •  Impressed (0+ / 0-)

    My thought son Webb yesterday:

    Democrat: good

    anti-war; good

    "moderate"; bad.

    My thoughts today: well spoken, intelligent, thoughtful. Interested in the upper class/middle class wealth gap-- an issue I consider VERY important.

    I think I'm gonna like this guy.

    I bet Virginia coal mine safety will improve as well.

  •  Webb Is Impressive (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    churchylafemme, bee tzu

    I had the exact same reaction to this.  What was so striking was the fact that Webb was so far superior to the NPR people.  I'm not used to hearing politicians who make media people look like fools.  I realized so clearly that this is so symptomatic of the way that the media has failed this country.  The great thing about this election is not just that we won, but that we put some really top knotch people in office.  Regardless of ideology, adding people of the caliber of Webb, Tester, Sanders, Brown, and lots of the new people in the House is really going shake things up.

  •  Media Still Using Murdoch’s Rules of Inter (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    merrinc, nom de paix

    Murdoch’s empire, especially his ratings successes at Fox set the standard for “news” media throughout the country.  Much of the media, even sadly, some NPR programs, bought into the ratings/money trap and packed their news programs with predominantly right-wing commentators.  They apparently are having a hard time breaking the habit, and probably as long as these biased wingnut commentators keep their jobs, we’ll have to hear the same recycled, rude, ignorant, divisive rhetoric. Many of them are so hate-filled that they really, really want the Democrats fail, and still can’t admit that the republicans have been miserable and even dangerous failures in governing.

    I would love to see Pat Buchannon, sister Bay Buchannon, Tucker Carlson, Glenn Beck, Noron, plus basically everyone on Fox, etc. replaced by people who are as apolitical as possible—in other words, by journalists--instead of former Republican politicians, former (or current) GOP think tank “experts”, and spouses of Bush Administration employees.  Until that time, we will continue hearing sour grape sucking republican sore loser rhetoric from much of the media.  Maybe the bloggers should organize media lobbying efforts to bring some real balance and real journalists back to the news reporting in the media.

  •  I have little patience (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    abarefootboy, jhop7

    ... for those who defend NPR on the basis of, "well, they don't suck as much as the others."

    The fact is, and anyone with ears and a working brain can disern it, they have grown tepid, timid and almost prehistorically stupid.

    They are part of the dumbing-down of the media audience, but the brie and chardonnay crowd's collective DNA is so infected with the milquetoast gene, all it can do is reflexively defend their annual pledged and hope to keep "Car Talk" and dead music serenades on the air.

    That's how we end up with the Mara Liassons and Steve Inskeeps in the news division.

    Start an interview with Jim Webb by invoking the short-bus shorthand of "no plan, all-Iraq"? That's not creativity; that's sheepitude.

    •  well (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      megisi

      I do like Car Talk.

      "now my foes tell me plainly I am an ass: so that by my foes, sir I profit in the knowledge of myself"

      by looty on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:27:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, me, too ... n/t (0+ / 0-)
      •  You mean "Cah Tawk" (0+ / 0-)

        With those guys and Jerry Remy's accent on the Sawx games, you've got about all the Bahston accent you'll ever need to hear.  Actually, The Remdawg is from Fall River but it's close enough.

        Yes, there are still FEMINISTS on Daily Kos! Join the fabulous Supervixens every Thurs. night.

        by hrh on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 11:17:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Cambridge trivia (0+ / 0-)

          If you look up at the corner building across from Out of Town News (the one with Curious George Goes to Wordsworth), you will painted on one of the upper floor windows "Law offices of Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe."

          A nice little tribute from the P.R.C. to two of its own.

          :)

          "now my foes tell me plainly I am an ass: so that by my foes, sir I profit in the knowledge of myself"

          by looty on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 01:25:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  NPR gets accused of bias from left and right (0+ / 0-)

      proof that it really is unbiased.

      Please stop attacking NPR. We have better things to do.  I can't believe that you think NPR is helping to dumb down the media. NPR is the best station on my dial. Maybe you need to support your local NPR more so that they can buy better programming. Or maybe I am just dumb... I don't even know what milquetoast means.

  •  Someday... (0+ / 0-)

    I have high hopes that someday, the Left and the Right are going to figure out that even when you combine the two, THEY ARE THE MINORITY! The majority of people in this country sit in the middle. They may lean a bit to the left or the right, but they are closer to being centrists than anything else. I'm sick of people bitching about Sen. Obama "sprinting" to the center. He has always been there. Being in the center gives him the best chance to win and he knows it. And when it comes to NPR, they too have shifted to the middle, WHERE THEY FUCKING BELONG!!!!! The middle is where ALL news organizations should be. Fair and balanced doesn't work without it.

    I will admit, though, that the Jim Webb interview by Mara Liasson was quite harsh. But Sen.-elect Webb did a good job of defending himself.

    "Do not trifle in the affairs of evil, for you are chewy and would go well with a shot of vodka." - Anonymous

    by ridthyevil on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:10:29 AM PST

  •  Needling Primadonna Radio (0+ / 0-)

    Morning Edition had gotten more and more Fox-like in the post Bob Edwards era. I guess even with Tomlinsin gone at CPB, they still have to be "fair and balanced". Hitler would have loved NPR -- wait that's pretty much the propaganda model they use. Did I use Hitler in a senstence? Damn, give me some coffee.

    George W. Bush is just like Forrest Gump. Except that Forrest Gump is honest and cares about other people.

    by easong on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:10:32 AM PST

  •  Thank Goodness for the Netroots (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lirtydies, nom de paix

    NPR like most of the MSM has become mushy as it has tacked right.

  •  Ignorant listners (7+ / 0-)

    I think that many of those listening who don't hear the bias aren't savvy enough to hear it.

    They are asking hard questions of the Dems which is fine IF they were asking hard questions of the Republicans, which they are NOT.

    I would prefer hard questions of EVERYONE but I don't hear that.  

    Simple frame of reference, how many times have they asked anyone from this administration to outline their plan?  What is the Republican plan for dealing with being in the minority?

    They are lobing softball questions at the GOP and grilling Dems.  They gloss over clear lies from the right or even use them to frame debate.  

    They are vastly better than most media but they are far from nuetral.

    Want to watch Republican economic theories in action? Look at Iraq.

    by Michaelpb on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:16:36 AM PST

    •  I heard the interview. No "Smackdown of PBS" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      highacidity, faithnomore

      That's an entirely unwarranted and inaccurate claim.  

      I did not hear the "bias," if only because Webb doesn't like to give incomplete or unconnected answers and she hardly got any time at all.  All she was trying to do was to have him answer a question that, like it or not, is out there.  Many people want to know what the Dems are going to do about Iraq.  Just because the Repubs attacked the Dems for "not having a plan on Iraq" doesn't mean the Dems don't need to have one.

      And those who draw inferences of bias from her repetition as a question of the phrase, "the 1880s?"  The interview was conducted over the phone, with the attendant possibilities of a misunderstanding, and, as a savvy individual, you may also know that the NINETEEN EIGHTIES were also a period of untrammelled greed.

      Their real God is money-- Jesus just drives the armored car. © 2006 All Rights Reserved

      by oblomov on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:16:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hard questions help (0+ / 0-)

      What illiterate listeners (spellcheck is your friend, Michael) like Michaelpb fail to understand is that answering tough questions well is what gets independent voters to vote for you.  

      It was a very short interview and Webb was allowed to speak at length with minimal interruption.  You can ask me the nastiest question in the world, but if you give me a minute and a half to answer it without interruption, it's hard for me to argue that I didn't get a fair shake.

      If you think the other side doesn't get asked tough questions you obviously haven't watched a Presidential press conference in the last year.

      Nothing to recommend here.  NPR is still a great, if not the best, domestic source for information.  This interviewer was mildly piqued that Webb wouldn't answer her question directly, but let him talk at length without interruption.  She did her job as a journalist.  He did his job as Senator-elect.  Nothing to see here.

      •  If you be so litarate... (0+ / 0-)

        Then you would have grasped that my post refered to NPR in general rather than only to the Webb interview which I didn't actually listen to.

        If you think the press has asked hard questions of the President, then if I ever have to be grilled, I hope you are the one doing the grilling because its always nice to have it easy.

        When you frame your questions using the talking points of one side or the other, especially when those talking points are unsuported by the facts, you are exhibiting bias.  If you don't know enough to hear that bias then in my world you qualify as igoorant, so even if the word is speled wrong,  your still stupid.

        Want to watch Republican economic theories in action? Look at Iraq.

        by Michaelpb on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 10:46:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

  •  thanks (& a question) (0+ / 0-)

    I loved your recap of the interview - I didn't hear it, but I did see Jon Tester on Hardball yesterday - I'm very impressed.

    My question is about Barak Obama - Was that a snark a the end of your diary?  I rather like the junior senator from Illinois.

    ```
    peace

  •  What a huge victory (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lysias

    for America was the Virgina Senate seat.

    THIS is the kind of person who belongs in the highest levels of government.

  •  Somebody at NPR must be thinking about their (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    abarefootboy

    resume. I hope the new Congress drains the swamp there too.
    Life in corporate, for-profit media isn't very different, except for the lack of job security.

  •  I told (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    The Angry Buddhist, corvo

    an employee of our local NPR affiliate that I would never contribute to the station as long as they are afraid of their shadow and the Bush Administration in the way they slant their reporting.

    This is from a person that has been faithfully listening to NPR since 1970.

    The way to impact the NPR ideology is through the pocketbook. Vote with your dollars. With NPR's reputation as "liberal", their local stations must rely on the dollars of progressives to survive. Do you think that the right wing will support the pledge drives of NPR affiliates?

    If they won't change their lapdog focus when their dollars dry up, OK then.

    This stuff makes golf look like porn.

    by Toes on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:45:18 AM PST

  •  Pravda says: Oh, The Self-Righteousness! (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo

     First, Jim Webb is what America needs right now, and the casual injustice of the media to Democratic ideas has to end.  NPR has internalized the "liberal bias" debate like a true co-dependent, because they are.  They were under intense scrutiny and pressure and had to make concessions to survive in the newly passed political climate, and I do hope they learn quickly they aren't being held to the flames any more.  The listeners should speak up to them and restore their sense of their true responsibilities.  According to NPR, their "Purpose" is: "Credibility."  Really.  See here http://www.npr.org/...  They continue:

    NPR News expects its outside contributors to be free of conflicts of interest on stories they cover, to be fair and accurate, and to pursue stories in a manner consistent with the ethical journalism principles stated in this code.

      My gut-level feeling on what fuels this debate is this: DailyKos depends on other media outlets for one of its truly important functions, filtering and digesting what is happening in the world and clarifying the picture of who we are and where we need to go.  Many new and important news pieces originate and are developed here by first-hand participants or witnesses, but a good portion of the dialogue hinges on the content and accuracy of other media from individual reporters and bloggers up to the biggest MSM outfits; also the effort to create and maintain accuracy and accountability in those sources (and ultimately in the government itself.)  Cleaning house of financial and political biases in all media might be a utopian goal.   We'll all be better off the closer we get.

    you learn something new every day, if you're paying attention

    by jhop7 on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 07:47:31 AM PST

  •  Bizarro World. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    markymarx

    I am totally amazed by the responses on this thread. The NPR reporter did a fine job with the interview and  asked perfectly reasonable questions in the interest of introducing Webb to a broad, national audience of mostly Dem and progressive-leaning NPR listeners, most of whom paid attention to their local races and are thrilled that Dems won, but don't know the nonlocal candidates all that well. Webb did an average to fine job with an interview, and tried to steer it where he wanted it to go. But he would have done better to try a little less soliloquy.

    Beyond that, the man was freaking Secretary of the Navy. He knows a thing or two about military policy. He's got a major shot to define the new Democratic direction on Iraq. And he wants to do a John Edwards impression and talk about two Americas? Don't get me wrong, I know Webb spoke from the stump about economic issues and I'm thrilled to have him speaking out about the shrinking middle class. But would it have killed him to go ahead and take the straightforward Iraq question that started the interview with a straight, direct response?

    •  36 Year Listener (6+ / 0-)

      The reactions on the thread comes from many of us who remember what NPR used to be in its heyday in comparison to what it has become. It's sad to see an instituion of quality, class, and public value try to emulate commercial radio.

      A true tragedy of American journalism. Chalk it up to the spineless leadership of NPR and the refusal of local affiliates to hold the feet of national leadership to the fire.

      This stuff makes golf look like porn.

      by Toes on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:02:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've been listening for 35. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        markymarx, indybend, joemcginnissjr

        And while the coverage/tenor of the news programming has changed, I clearly disagree with some of my fellow long-time listeners that NPR has somehow been co-opted by the right-wing noise machine. Spend five minutes listening to conservative talk radio--which is, sadly, the mainstream now of American radio--and you can't miss how terrific NPR remains.

        •  How's the view? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nom de paix

          Through that overton window?

          It's double pa(i)n-ed for their pleasure...

          It is amazing how much can be accomplished when you don't care who gets the credit - Harry Truman
          PoliticalCompass Scale: -2.13, -2.97

          by floundericiousMI on Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 08:29:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry - you are wrong (0+ / 0-)

          For me, Katrina REALLY brought home for me how bad NPR had become.

          I don't have cable - so was expecting NPR to keep me informed about what was going on (as they had done after 9/11).

          They TOTALLY blew it. Yes - they DID cover the story, but they 'buried' it behind other stories and behinad 'happy news'  did virtually no investigative reporting and was very mild in 'challenging' Bush's 'non-response'.

          Even crappy network shows like 'Dateline" covered Katrina better than NPR did.

          While I realized that more and more NPR was carrying water for Bushco, it was thrown into stark relief by their negligence in covering a story that made Bush look not just bad but TERRIBLE.

    •  Agree about the reporter - typicas questions (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      faithnomore, nom de paix

      strongly disagree about the Webb response.

      The media never discuseese class issues. Ever. But it's why Casey, Webb, and Brown won.

      We're going to capture and hold this government based on fundamental issues of economic fairness.

      A comprehensive Democratic Iraq policy isn't needed - and it's not Congress's job. Their job is oversignt, and to draw the line on presidential power.

      As everyone knows, there ARE no good policy options in Iraq.

      Let Bush twist in the wind witing for the Baker report. He hasn't got a policy, but that IS his job.

  •  Great. NPR Another Good Progressive Institution (6+ / 0-)

    that now needs to be rooted out for the neocon mold, and theokon insects that have been allowed to invade.

    •  NPR used to be a reliable news organization (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      javelina, bee tzu

      without bias, progressive, regressive, or otherwise.  In the last couple years, they've taken a sharp turn to the right.  I still support our local station, but I don't know how long I'm going to keep doing so.

      •  I don't see it, actually (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hrh, hoolia, s choir
        Perhaps because Minnesota Public Radio is one of the largest and best funded (by membership -- MPR gets a greater part of its operating funds direct from members than any other public radio organization in the country) and thus maintains more independence.

        It is certainly true that the Right Wing attempted a direct takeover of the CPB and tried to use that to intimidate journalists and stations. But on the whole, I still think MPR and NPR provide the best broadcast journalism available.

        There is an extent to which the right has mastered the "frame" and the "cycle" and to which they have driven the "meme machine" up to the present. And I am sure that some NPR reporters are biased to the right. But I don't think it is a majority of them, or even that large a minority.

        I am bothered by the extent to which they, like virtually all professional journalists, fall into the horserace coverage instead of actually trying to educate and evaluate real policy issues.

        But to complain about NPR in a world with FOX news is like calling your neighbor during a hurricane to complain that his cat is breathing on your tree.

        Full dsclosure: That analogy was something I heard a scientist interviewed for a story about radiation from powerlines say. He said that "standing in the sun worrying about the radiation you are getting from powerlines is like calling your neighbor during a hurricane to complain that his cat is breathing on your tree." I just love the analogy so much that I will jump through virtually any hoop to use it. Sorry...

  •  Ronald Reagan had it right (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    abarefootboy

    A rising tide lifts all ships. Therefore we have not had a rising tide, merely pressure in the bidet set too high.

    fact does not require fiction for balance

    by mollyd on Fri